HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, February 28.

[DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.] Mr. Whitbread rose to put a question to the right hon. gent. respecting our relations with the United States. They had been given to understand in the Regent's Speech, at

where he used to work, and that he used to give him some of his provisions; and he began to mend, as he thought, and about a week ago he was taken worse, and continued so till he died; and that he sometimes asked for particular things, water-gruel and mutton-broth, and which he gave him; that he sometimes took them, and sometimes could not; and he believes he had every thing he asked for that it was in his power to give him, and that he continued in his clothes till his death; that he used to be very often fretting about his wife, who was ill, and for that reason he could not see her; and that he had a soldier's cloak, and another coat, and several waistcoats on.

Elizabeth Brannan, on her oath, saith,

That she lives a servant with Mrs. Champion in the said prison, and that about a week ago she went up into Kauffman's room, and saw a man lying in bed there, which she believes to be the said Thomas Culver; and he said he was starving, that he wanted a bason of coffee; and she said she would speak to her mistress to make him a bason; and her mistress did so: and she took it up to Culver, and two crumpets; this was about ten o'clock in the morning; and he drank the coffee, but did not eat the crumpets; and about six o'clock in the afternoon she took him up some tea, and he drank it; and about nine o'clock the same night she took him up some barley water, and he was calling out for the watchman; and she asked him what he wanted with him, and he said he wanted half a pint of stout; and she went to the watchman, and told him of it; but whether he took it or not she does not

know; she says there was a fire in the room; this was about three days before

he died.

"Nathan Settle, a prisoner in the said prison, on his oath saith, That when the

said Thomas Culver came into the said prison, he was apparently well, and that he was taken ill some weeks after, and that he then got better and relapsed again, and that he continued ill till he died; that he saw him twice during his illness; that

the opening of the session, that the nego ciations so long pending were likely t have an amicable termination; ther were, however, rumours then afloat, of very opposite tendency; if he had bee rightly informed, the American ministe had had his audience of leave, this day, the Prince Regent, preparatory to h

the day before he died, he saw him in be in Kauffman's room, and that whilst b was there the doctor came, and he aske him how he did, and he said he was ver bad; and the doctor said he saw he wa worse than when he saw him last; an then Mr. Canfield said he had given hir some things, and had appointed a mante sit up with him; he said he did not con plain he was in want of any thing.

"Robert Hay, a prisoner in the sa prison, on his oath saith, That when Cu ver first came into the prison he was ap parently well, and was taken ill soon afte and that one day he met him in the yar and he asked him how he did, and he sai he was starving; and he took him to h room and gave him some pork and mutton which he did not then eat, but took awa with him; and that he frequently saw hi afterwards, and he always complained being in want, and said he had not the had a mouthful of bread for two days; thi was about a month before he died.

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"William Hammerton, a prisoner in th said prison, on his oath saith, That about fortnight after Culver came into the priso he saw him, and he asked him if he ha some broken victuals, and said he shoul be glad of it, for he had not had tuals for two days till just then, when Mi Hay and Mr. Alman had given him bit of pork; and that he was apparently well; but he was afterwards told he har some bacon at the same time in his bag and about two months ago he saw him take up a bone in the yard, which had just been thrown down, and put it to hit mouth.

“Thomas Brade, a prisoner in the said prison, on his oath saith, That he was in the prison when the said Thomas Culver first came in, and that he was then apparently well, and in about a week or a fort night after he was taken ill, that he desired a surgeon might be sent for, and a surgeon was sent for, who attended him, he believes, three or four times in the course of that week, and gave him medicines; he says he appeared to him to have died for want of proper attendance.

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quitting this country, and thus putting a final, and not an amicable termination to his mission. If this were the case, he wished to ask the right hon. gent. if it was his intention, under such circumstances, to advise his royal highness to direct the necessary papers respecting that negociation to be laid upon the table of that House?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, it was true that the American minister had that day had his audience of leave, but that the negociations were finally broken off, he had yet to learn of the hon. gent. Though the American minister was about to leave this country, he was not quitting it under such circumstances as the hon. gent, supposed. He would leave behind him a charge d'affaires to carry on a diplomatic correspondence, and so far from the negociations between the two countries being interrupted, a gentleman had just been appointed envoy extraordinary to America. There was nothing in the manner in which the American minister, now about leaving this country, took his departure, that could give reason to any one to suppose such an interruption had occurred. Under these circumstances, he saw no reason for advising the Prince Regent to cause any papers on the subject be laid before the House, which would not otherwise be produced.

pursuance of notice, moved; "That anhumble Address be presented to the Prince Regent, praying, that he would be graciously pleased to direct, that an investigation may be made into the quantity of home-made spirits distilled from grain, remaining in the hands of the Distillers of Ireland, upon the 5th of March, 1810, when the reduction of the duty upon spirits took place; praying compensation for the losses sustained by them; and assuring his Royal Highness that this House will make good the same."

Mr. Shaw, of Dublin, rose to second the address, and in doing so, begged leave to assure the House, that no case could possibly come before them which had stronger claims on their attention and their justice. They would recollect, that from the month of June, 1808, to the month of March, 1810, the distillation from grain had been prohibited; the natural cousequence of this was, that at the end of that period, there remained upon hand a very considerable stock of spirits distilled from sugar. The allowance of the distillation from grain must have sensibly affected the value of this stock had that allowance been duly foreseen, but it took place contrary to all fair expectation; its operations on the price of the sugar spirits were, of course, not only strong, but sudden; and not only was the allowance granted, Mr. Whitbread was glad to hear an an- but the duty was reduced from 5s. 8d. to swer so contradictory of what he had un- 2s. 6d. and consequently no time afforded derstood to be the case, but confessed, at for the disposal of the large stock of sugar the same time, that it was not sufficiently spirits on hand, though the invariable rule fatisfactory to his mind, and that he must, was, that whenever any additional duty therefore, reserve to himself the right of was put on spirits, the stock on hand was giving notice on some early day, of a mo- always excised, and therefore the persons tion for the necessary papers on this sub-concerned in the trade expected some reject.

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[IRISH DISTILLERIES.] Mr. Grattan, in

"William Palmer, surgeon, on his oath, aith, That soon after the said Thomas Colver came into the prison, he was sent for to him, and he was then very unwell with a feverish complaint and a bowel Complaint connected with it, and he got better about a week after, and soon relapsed again; and that he was then taken ill again, and it appeared from a breaking up of his constitution that he was then above 70 years of age, and that he believes he had all the necessaries that he from time to time required to have, either from Mr. Jenkins or any other person; and, that he administered such medicines as he thought necessary." (VOL. XIX.)

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gulation in case of a reduction of duty. In this case, however, there had been none, and therefore the stock became in general so much dead loss; and he need scarcely remind the House of the sad effects of this was manifested in so melancholy a manner, by the unprecedented increase of bankruptcies last year in Dublin. The speculation in sugar-spirit had been very extensive in consequence of the confident and general expectation of the continuance of the prohibition; all the speculators were severe sufferers, and those of them who had not large and extensive capitals, found themselves suddenly involved in inevitable bankruptcy. For these reasons he trusted the House would see the necessity of resorting to the speediest and most effectual means of compensating those who (I)

had suffered at once so extensively and so unmeritedly.

The Speaker called the attention of the House to the subject matter of the proposition about to be submitted to them. There was a standing order of the House, that no petitions for money should be received, unless recommended by the crowu. This was a motion to obtain compensation. Without the form of a petition, the same effect was intended to be produced.

justice to allow a diminution of the duty upon the stock on hand, as well as that to be distilled. His complaint was, that there was no interval of time left for them to get rid of their stock. If there were only two days consumption of spirits in the country, there was surely the less dif ficulty in doing the necessary act of jus tice. As this was an age of precedents, they ought upon this occasion to follow that of the Tea Commutation Act, by which the duties were diminished, but a period of three months was allowed the dealers to dispose of their stock on hand; and it was on that account that no allowance of drawback was given to them. If the distillers had no other mode of redress but by petition, it was leaving it in the power of any financial minister to withhold his consent on account of his being the individual who imposed the hardship complained of. He therefore agreed in the propriety o the line that had been adopted by hi right hon. friend, as the proposed addres prayed for an investigation, and not mere ly that money should be paid them.

Colonel Barry said, that in his opinion there was no ground for compensation whatever; for, in the first place, the dis tillers had proved no loss. These distiller had enjoyed a monopoly; and it did no appear that they had not sold every gal lon of their spirits as high as ever they could have done, had there been no after ation of the duty.

Mr. Foster opposed the motion. No man could say that the reduction of the duty upon spirits imposed any hardship upon any of the distillers. As it was done by act of parliament, it afforded them a fair notice of what was intended to be done. The stock of spirits was taken upon the same day the prohibition was enforced, and there were found to be 115,000 gallons; and only 50,000 gallons were distilled under the higher duties. There was not then enough of spirits to answer the market in Ireland, so that the distillers found greater benefit in supplying it, instead of exporting their spirits. There were not spirits equal to two days distillation in the whole of that country; so that these distillers had a sale for their spirits which amply indemnified them for the duties they paid. The duty was altered from 5s. 8d. to 2s. 6d. per gallon; but they were not on that account entitled to a drawback of 3s. 2d. as they now claimed. The utmost they could claim, by his calculation, was 41d. per gallon; but he saw Mr. Hutchinson had no doubt, that if the no reason for making any allowance what House agreed to the motion, they woul ever. If any drawback were to be allow-be able to decide what was the amount o ed, it might with equal propriety be al- the loss these distillers had sustained. I lowed to all the other holders and dealers 1783, when the duties upon French wine in all foreign spirits, a thing which would were equalized, the holders of these wine be extremely impolitic. In looking into had a drawback granted to them, and such the Journals, he found five petitions pre- ought to be their conduct in the presen sented upon this subject formerly, and instance. He did think the matter ought after it was discussed they were rejected. to be investigated by the House, as many It was indeed contrary to the practice of failures, he understood, had taken place in the right hon. gent. himself, when in 1795 consequence of the losses they had sus he brought in a bill into the Irish parlia- tained. ment for encouraging the brewing of beer, by taking off the excise duties, but there

was no drawback allowed for the stock on

hand. Under all these circumstances, he considered that there was this solid objection to the motion; that there was no document produced to shew that any investigation whatever was necessary. He thought such a question should go through a committee of the whole House, before such a motion could be made.

Sir J. Newport thought that it was but

The Speaker repeated his objection to the mode of proceeding, as contrary to the established rule that had existed for century. The identical case had already been submitted to the House in the form of a petition, and rejected on account of its not being regularly recommended on the part of the government, and it would be rendering their rule of no avail to receive it in any other form.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer approved highly of what had fallen from the Chair.

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