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to attribute them to such cause. The fault lay in the law, which obliged the government of Ireland to act with a marked partiality to one sect. Until this defect in the law was remedied, it would be impossible for any chief governor of Ireland to act impartially. The fault, then, of the government of Ireland, as far as its government was affected by the operation of the penal code, rested with parliament, who had it in their power to repeal that code. Almost all the evils which affected Ireland, whether they originated in this code or not, were fostered and fomented by it. The United Irishmen had not originated in religious animosities, but their disturbances had at length turned into that disordered channel. Thus it would ever be; there was something radically bad in the law, and as long as it was not remedied, so long would it continue to be the nurse of every evil which arose in the state, whether originating with itself or not. A sore on the finger may, though in itself not very dangerous, be turned to mortality. It was the same in the body politic; small evils may thus become the channels through which great miseries might flow on the state.

The honourable gentleman then contended, that it was essential to the security of the empire, that the evils which existed in any part of it should be traced to their source, in order to prevent their spreading, or being the cause of others as pernicious as themselves. Ile observed that the societies of Orangemen, which caused so much disaffection between Protestant and Catholic in Ireland, had arisen from the effects of the penal code. Another evil which arose from it was, that the people of Ireland, he meant the Catholic population, were not identified with the law. The advantage of that identification would be to unite all in defence and support of privileges which all equally enjoyed; but this advantage, which was contemplated by the Union, was lost by the continued existence of partial laws, which, while they obliged the Catholic to defend the constitution, gave him little or no share in the privileges of that constitution. It was vain then to expect, that while such partiality existed, the great body of the Catholics could be identified with the laws. So long as this code of laws remained unrepealed, so long would there exist in the state a large body of men, of whom the government must necessarily be afraid, and to overawe whom it would be necessary to support a large standing army.

This was a necessary consequence of the penal code, and not its least obnoxious one, as it tended to draw on a military government It was true the soldiers so employed may not be badly disposed, but as long as the soldiers in any country exceeded a fair proportion

of the population, so long is the liberty of the inhabitants held. not by the law, but by the clemency of the army. He had every respect for the army, he applauded them for their unparallelled victories and for their strict discipline, but still he could never consent that British subjects should hold their liberties at their pleasure. He did not mean to say, that the support of a large standing army was the intention of the continuance of the penal code, but such was its effect. It was necessary that this army should be kept, in order to keep down a proscribed people. It was also necessary that this army should be paid at a vast expense to the country; and for what was all this expense and this risk of a military government incurred? To keep such men as the Duke of Norfolk or the Earl of Fingall out of parliament, lest if they got a seat there they should seek by treasonable conspiracies to overturn the constitution. But why should these, or any other Catholic noblemen, seek to overturn the constitution when they were admitted to a participation of its privileges? Or if they were so disposed, how could they effect it? Would it be by applying to France? No. To Spain? No. We were in peace and amity with those powers. Was it then to the

Pope they would apply? Such an idea was ridiculous. The Pope had not the power, nor if he had, was he disposed to exert it. Yet it was for this we were obliged to keep up a large standing army, to prevent a few noblemen from doing that which they would not do if they could, and could not if they would. Yet these were the idle fears for which we were called upon to make such sacrifices.

He begged leave to add, that the empire, according to the admission of all parties, was at present in a state of great splendour. We had made great additions to it by conquest, and it required large standing armies to keep those conquests. Why then should we add to the number of our troops, in order to keep a part of our fellowsubjects as aliens in their native country? Such conduct was most absurd and impolitic, and tended greatly to reduce the strength of the empire. Here then was the danger which was to be incurred; and for what? For refusing emancipation on those very terms ou which it had been opposed some time back. The opponents of emancipation feared some time back, that by granting that measure, they would be granting an influence to a foreign power; that fear was now done away by the terms which he proposed. The terms would place the Catholic prelates out of the danger of any foreign influence, and sufficiently under the power of the crown for any security which it could demand. He begged the House to be on their guard against anything like recrimination on the Catholics.

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would not be politic to refer back to ancient dates of history, to sec what had been done on former occasions by them. It would be sufficient to know, that in 1782 we had made most important concessions to Ireland, which we should not now retract in part, by refusing the benefits of our law to three-fourths of its inhabitants. It had been once said, that Ireland would not receive the English law when it was pressed upon her. The House should not now act upon a contrary principle, and refuse those benefits to so large a portion of the Irish population, who would receive them with joy and gratitude.

He then moved, "That this House will, early in the next session of parliament, take into its most serious consideration the state of the laws affecting his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Great Britain and Ireland, with a view to such a final and conciliatory adjustment as may be conducive to the peace and tranquillity of the United Kingdom, to the stability of the Protestant establishment, and to the general concord and satisfaction of all classes of his Majesty's subjects".

May 9, 1817.

MR. GRATTAN, previous to submitting his motion to the House on the subject of the Catholic claims, moved, "That the petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, presented on the 15th of May, 1816, be read"

The petition was accordingly read by the clerk.

MR. GRATTAN then said: Having been applied to by the Roman Catholics of Ireland to bring their case under the consideration of the House, I shall now proceed to discharge the duty I have undertaken. But, sir, it is not my intention at present to go into this important question. I shall entreat the indulgence of the House to hear my sentiments fully by way of reply. Upon a question of this sort, which has been debated in this House so often, it would be monstrous presumption in me to expect to be heard twice in the course of one night; I shall therefore request the indulgence of the Ilouse for my reply; and shall now trouble gentlemen but a very few minutes. The resolution I intend to move is, for a committee to take the laws affecting the Roman Catholics into consideration. It is the same motion which was carried in 1813, and does nothing more than pledge the House to examine the penal laws, with a view to relieve the Catholics, to give every security to the Protestant

establishment, and ultimately to impart satisfaction to all orders of men in the empire. I say ultimate satisfaction; because in such a question as this, the hope of giving immediate satisfaction to every order of men, is a matter of utter impossibility; and therefore the House must legislate to the best of its judgment, with a view to the ultimate satisfaction of one party, and the immediate relief of another.

I have read the report* which my learned and useful friend (Sir J. C. Hippesley) has presented to the House, which has clearly shown you that, in all the great countries of Europe, there is a civil and nilitary toleration, incorporation, and qualification, for all religious sects; that there is, in nearly every state of Europe, a certain connexion between the clergy and the government, so as to preclude the danger of foreign influence; and that England is almost the only country where such an arrangement has not yet been made. I beg to observe, that there is now every reason to hope, and there is no reason to doubt, but that securities may be had, and such securities as the House will perhaps think desirable. There may be domestic nomination, there may be a veto-there may be both! Now you may command your own securities, and therefore let not gentlemen say: "We cannot accede to Catholic emancipation, because we have no securities". The question is, will you endanger the safety of your own church, in order to exclude the Catholics from the constitution? You now have securities, both for church and state, af your command. If you exclude the Catholics, if you keep from them civil and military rights, will you not say, that you will exclude the Protestant church and the Protestant settlement from security? That is to declare, that you will prefer to the securities which your fellow-subjects offer, and which have so often been represented as necessary to the safety of the church and state, a monopoly, the monopoly of power, the monopoly of seats in parliament, the monopoly of civil and military offices. Is it not to say, that you wil prefer this power, not to the freedom of your Roman Catholic fellow subjects, but to the security of the Protestant church? So that i will appear that, having called for securities in order to justify you in granting liberty, you now refuse them when offered, and exclude the Catholics, in order to prevent them from participating in that power which they were expected to share. I beg leave to say, that the present question is not about the means by which securities may be effected. I will not debate that point. The question is, whether

* Official papers relating to the regulation of the Roman Catholics: printed by order of the House of Commons.

any securities whatever will be received? Let me tell you why. There is a communication between the Pope and the Catholic clergy, which must end either in incorporation with the See of Rome, or connexion with the government of England, and if the latter be refused, it will be dangerous to the safety of England. You will have the Catholic clergy incorporated with the See of Rome, and the Catholic laity discorporated from the people of England.

I shall go into a committee to move the repeal of the laws that disqualify the Catholics from civil, military, and naval power, subject to such arrangements as may be judged necessary for the safety of the Protestant religion, the act of settlement, and the government of Great Britain; that is to say, subject to such provisions as you will feel necessary for the security of your church and state; that, if you choose to adopt the resolution, you may show to the world that you have ceased to be the only country in Europe that withheld those rights, but that you are ready to give franchises, and that you are willing to grant a participation in the benefits of your constitution to your Catholic fellow-subjects. This will acquit you with regard to your having a just idea of the principles of liberty, whilst the securities you will receive will effectually protect your civil and religious privileges. Give to the Catholics all they require, taking care that your church is properly protected. This is the principle on which the question will stand, and the point which you must ultimately concede. With respect to safeguards, I think there is no man, when he procures rights which he considers inestimable, that ought not to give you those securities, which, while they do not trench on the Catholic church, afford strength and safety to the Protestant religion. I shall now move:

66 "That this House do resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to take into its most serious consideration the state of the laws affecting his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Great Britain and Ireland, with a view to such a final and conciliatory adjustment as may be conducive to the peace and strength of the United Kingdom, to the stability of the Protestant establishment, and the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his Majesty's subjects".

I beg to say this, that my idea is not, in any degree whatever to put it out of the power of this House to insist on full satisfaction relative to the proffered securities, before they proceed to legislate; so that nothing that shall occur in the House, either now or at any future period, shall be considered operative, unless the House be perfectly satisfied that the securities offered will insure the safety of the Protestant church and state.

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