state chemist and have it analyzed, and if not according to the formula on the bag, a heavy penalty will be imposed. Such a bureau is very valuable.

PROFESSOR G. H. HAMLIN wanted to say that he believed that when the provisions of this bill were carefully investigated there would be a different opinion. held by those who are now opposing it, concerning its utility to the engineering profession and to the people generally, and for many reasons, which he would not take the time to rehearse there. But one thing in parIt has been said that

ticular he did wish to speak of. government work is very expensive. He was willing to grant that, but said there must be a distinction made between the expense of work which is done directly by the government and that which is detailed to institutions. For five years the speaker had been the treasurer of the Maine State College and had the handling of the funds which came from the Hatch appropriation, and he wanted to testify here that he believed those funds had been as carefully used as the money which belonged to any public or private institution in the country. The speaker believed that the record which the Hatch Station at the Maine State College had made with those funds, in the few years of its existence, would fully corroborate this statement. Every cent of that money had been as carefully expended as any other revenue which the College had received. The workers in the Experiment Station were just as carefully selected, and worked for just as little money, and just as faithfully as those in any other department of the College.

As to whether or not this Bill is in the correct form

there may be opportunity for a difference of opinion. In the opinion of the speaker it is. It has been brought before this society for discussion and, if possible, to be perfected, and not for the purpose of endorsement as has been suggested. The speaker would go on record as very positively in favor of the Bill, as he believed it to be wise in its provisions, and that it should be passed, both in justice to the great mechanical interests of the country, and to the department of mechanic arts in the land grant colleges, as it would incidentally give the same aid and strength to that department as the Hatch Act has given to the department of agriculture in the same institutions. The speaker believed that when the members of this society realized the difficulties under which the engineering department of these colleges labored, they would take hold and help this matter along. The students in these institutions must learn to investigate somewhere. They are unable to go far from home and incur great expense. They can develop a taste for scientific work and those who do develop the taste generally go to some larger institution, where they can more thoroughly perfect their knowledge. The speaker always recommended his best students who could afford it to go, after graduation, to some larger institution where the equipment is more general and the faculty more special for a postgraduate course.

PROFESSOR W. K. HATT said that he agreed with the remarks of Professor Goss on the matter. He did not know that the Bill had in view the general strengthening of the technical schools; it seemed unfortunate that so much stress had been put on the idea of re

search. He would not go so far as to say that no research work of any value is done by students in engineering colleges. He remembered the publication, by the Engineering News, of certain student theses, which had certainly yielded information of value to the engineering profession. Work of this kind would be furthered by the provisions of the Bill. He thought, however, the generally increased efficiency of the small schools was a more important end, and he would welcome any aid in this direction, although not in sympathy with the form and provisions of the Bill.

PROFESSOR J. E. OSTRANDER called attention to an objection in the abstract of the paper to the effect that engineering experiment is independent of locality. This point had not been touched upon by anybody else, and he would like to call the attention of the members to the fact that there are a number of experiments which are necessarily made in the locality where they are to be used. In the first place, in the Northwest, where he happened to be located at present, there were no testing machines so far as he knew, except those of the Northern Pacific Railroad which had made some tests on Oregon fir. As soon as those tests became known, the value of Oregon fir increased rapidly on the market. It had a sale in places where there was no market for it before. Those tests might have been made at a great distance, but it would have been necessary to ship the timber a thousand miles at least, had not the Northern Pacific had a laboratory. Experiments on the evaporation of water made in one state are of little value in another. It is necessary to have money to conduct these experiments. Experi

ments ought to be made in certain places on the reduction of certain kinds of ores. Different kinds of ores need different treatment. Without money to experiment on the treatment of an ore it might be pronounced unprofitable to produce it, while if experiments were made a profitable method might be found. These are a few instances where it seems quite important to have an experiment station.

PROFESSOR W. T. MAGRUDER said that while some of the speakers had been on their feet he had carefully gone over the whole Bill, and that he wished to call attention to several statements of the Bill which he thought would convince several of the gentlemen who had spoken that they had misunderstood the Bill. After reading every statement in the Bill where the words "Secretary of the Navy" occur, it would seem to be the case that the sole duty of the Secretary of the Navy is advisory, so far as this bill is concerned, and the function of the Navy Department is to co-operate and to assist the land grant colleges in doing a certain kind of work. What is that work? To establish engineering experiment stations.

way

Professor Goss has already called attention to the in which this money is to be appropriated, namely: "out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated." The speaker wished further to call attention to section 11 of the Bill which provides: "That a director for each engineering experiment station organized under this Act shall be appointed and his duties shall be prescribed by the governing board of the college with which such station shall be established." So that if a person is appointed director of any engi

neering experiment station he will be appointed by the board of trustees on nomination of the President of the College. The Secretary of the Navy will have nothing whatsoever to do with it. The director will have to report to the Secretary of the Navy only to the effect that he has done certain work during the year and that he forwards the results. From a careful reading of the Bill it would seem as if the sending of this report to the Secretary of the Navy was the only thing necessary for him to do so far as the Navy Department is concerned.

There is need for a bill of that kind. All bills passed by governments are like all human beings, imperfect. This one may not be the very best bill that somebody might devise. At any rate, is it not a step in the right direction? Is not money needed in order to develop engineering research, in order that accidents shall not occur from ignorance of the proper conditions, and in order that the work of the state may be advanced; money, for investigations which cannot be obtained from state governments? Take, for example, a very homely case. How much is known about the strength in compression of the building stones of New York State? Someone says, "Why, yes, experiments were made with two-inch cubes of such and such stones in such a testing machine, and they stood so many pounds;" but who can tell how much stress should be put upon a lintel, or the proper factor of safety to be used in the case of a stone pier, column or wall? It has already been discovered in New York City that some of the so-called "facts" resulting from experiments made by some of the most able experimenters of this coun