ances in the southern districts to the collection of the tithes on potatoes. Now the disturbances in 1820 commenced in the counties of Galway, Roscommon, Sligo, and Mayo, where no tithe on potatoes had ever been levied. The great mistake was, in imputing every thing to tithes, which were in fact only a co-existing ingredient. The real fact was, that in the price of the land upon the tenant, the latter had to pay three times the proportion in the shape of rent, which the clergyman would have exacted in tithes. Where the clergyman would have been satisfied with 3s. an acre in tithes, the landlord, where the land was tithe-free, levied 12s. for rent. As to the parochial clergy, he must always defend their cha racters from the unjust imputations cast upon them; and no authority-not even their own approbation, should ever induce him to consent to compromise the rights of the church. measure, because he thought that it laid a foundation for the commutation desired. Mr. Dawson said, he should certainly support the motion. But he must be allowed to argue this question as one of property. No body of men had so clear a title, perhaps, to their property, as the clergy possessed to tithes. It was a right so ancient, as to be, perhaps, anterior in its origin to any now existing. He would briefly consider the effect of rent and tithes as operative in producing the present distress. The rent generally bore more severely on the peasantry than tithes. In Ulster, the tithes were extremely moderate, and compositions were generally admitted. The law of agistment was there unknown, and that law he considered as one of the prominent causes of discontent. In Connaught, the people were free from the tithe on potatoes, but the law of agistment was in full operation. Still, however, little dissatisfaction preMr. Spring Rice said, that from the vailed. The rich man was contented, speech of the right hon. and learned because his pasture paid no tithe; and gentleman, it was quite clear that all the poor man experienced comparative hopes of a commutation were at an end. content, because his food was also exemptIf a fair and equal system of commutation ed from the operation of the tithe system. were adopted, he would venture to stake In this province compositions were scarcely the whole success of the measure on the ever entered into, except when a rich approbation of the parochial clergy; but grazier wished to convert a part of his a proposition like that now brought for- pasture into arable land. In Leinster no ward would be totally ineffective. Would potatoe tithe was demanded; and it was the right hon. and learned gentleman worthy of observation, that those counties accede to a commission emanating from were the most disturbed in which that the Crown, the object of which should be tithe was paid. Munster was the great to inquire into the practicability of com- source of all the complaints made against muting tithes, and which should be in- tithes; and it appeared to him, that the structed to lay the information it might law of agistment there was the real cause collect before that House? More good of the evil. It was not the rapacity of might be expected from such a commis- the clergy which produced such disastrous sion; for while Irish members, session consequences. They hardly received the after session, were talking about what 1-20th part of what they had a right to was proper to be done, nothing was claim; and ample time was allowed for effected. As to this commission, how- payment. It would be asked, if tithes ever, the House must call for it, or, he were so moderate, and the clergy so forwas afraid, it would never be constituted. bearing, why was this general outcry It would be necessary that some gentle raised against them? The reason was this violence should be used with ministers-the population of Ireland consisted of on the occasion; but, anticipating the happiest results from it, he was most anxious to see it carried into execution. Catholics, Presbyterians, and Protestants. The members of the Protestant church formed a comparatively small portion of Mr. Dennis Browne declared, that from the community. But in their hands all the time when he was quite a boy-for the power was placed, and they constituted last 50 years, the tithes and their col- the landed proprietors of the country. lection had disturbed the peace of Ire- If they found their rents not regularly land. The peace of his country never paid, they were sometimes apt to attricould be secure whilst such a system con-bute the circumstance to the tithe system. tinued. He was in favour of a commuta-So that religious, political, and self-intion but he would vote for the present terested feelings produced this outcry. VOL. VII. 3 X Nothing, however, should induce him to agree to any proposition that tended to deprive the clergy of their rights. Mr. O'Grady viewed the tithe system as the great cause of the disturbed state of Ireland. The bill would not do all that he wished, but it would do something. He would not support any kind of commutation that would put in the pockets of the clergy of Ireland more than they had at present; which, in fact, was already too much. The tithe system operated as a heavy tax on food and labour, and tended to discourage the cultivation of waste lands. Waste and barren lands were exempted from the operation of the tithe system, which was a sort of premium for keeping them in that useless state. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to point out the hardships which the farmer suffered under the existing regulations for enforcing the payment of tithe. If he gave his note, and failed to pay it, a decree was had against him; then a monition, which took him into the Assistant Barrister's Court; and ultimately he had an appeal to the Judge. These vexatious proceedings weighed him down by their expense. There was, however, a summary mode of recovering tithe to the amount of 51. In that case the farmer was summoned before a magistrate, who decided on his case. The clergyman himself, though a magistrate, could not act in such a case; but his brother magistrate, who was sometimes invited for the purpose, heard the cause. The consequence was, that the magistrate could not shield himself from the suspicion of such an acute and distrustful people as the Irish were ;-and the effect was, to bring the administration of justice into disrepute. Besides, the magistrate was frequently unable to attend; and the farmer, having appeared to answer to the summons repeatedly, disgusted and irritated by the delay, neglected to attend when the magistrate was in readiness. When that happened, the case was decided behind his back, and he was punished as if he had been contumacious. Was it surprising that this should have an effect on the education of his children? What was education, but inculcation? And what would he instil into the minds of his children, but hatred and hostility to the law of the land. The potatoe tithe was most oppressive. There was scarcely a county where the potatoe tithe was demanded to which a special commission had not been sent for the trial of offences. He wished the English law, relating to the tithe on flax, to be extended to Ireland. It was remarkable that in that country the progress of discontent and cultivation had been the same. They had proceeded pari passu, and in proportion as she exported she became dissatisfied. The tithe system had mainly contributed to this effect; and if it could not be abolished, something ought to be done without delay to ameliorate it. The Marquis of Londonderry said, that while the question was under the consideration of ministers, he should be sorry to see gentlemen enter into any discussion which would have the effect of pledging them to one particular line of proceeding to the exclusion of every other. For himself he was sincerely anxious to adopt such a course as would produce permanent relief to Ireland. It had been said, that in Catholic countries the tithes had been totally abolished. He should be sorry that this should operate in any other way than as a caution against those dangerous and revolutionary doctrines, the yielding to which had produced such devastation in the world. This bill would produce many good effects, and, among others, that of removing the middle-man in the tithe system. His right hon. friend, in bringing it forward had shown that he looked at the question with the enlarged views of a statesman, anxious to preserve the estates of the church on the one hand, while he secured the property and happiness of the people on the other. His right hon. friend had not stated that he was decidedly against all commutation, but had left it for future decision. He must deprecate the decisive tone in which hon. members had spoken. Some of them seemed to consider it quite as easy a matter to commute tithes and to settle the value as it was to buy or sell a quarter of wheat. He should tremble for the whole property of the country if parliament were not to sanction the principle, that the possessions of the clergy were to be touched with as much delicacy as those of any private individual. He begged it to be understood, that ministers had by no means decided against a commutation, if it could be effected on the principle of a full and fair equivalent. At present, leave was only asked to bring in a better bill than an hon. baronet had, for three sessions, been pressing upon the House. Mr. Hutchinson was disposed to give | arrived without any thing being offered to leave to bring in the bill, without how-the consideration of parliament, he should ever pledging himself to support it, or be acquitted of any thing like rashness in committing himself in any way against bringing forward the motion he was about the necessity of a commutation of tithes to submit to their lordships. In the view in Ireland. If leave were refused, minis- which he would take of the situation of ters, in despair, might abandon the sub- that country, he would avoid dwelling on ject, or at least have a fair excuse for those topics of distress which were the doing so. He begged to remind the subject of complaint throughout the United noble marquis, that during the discussions Kingdom in general. He would, however, on the Union, Mr. Pitt, besides impliedly take the liberty of reminding their lordpromising emancipation, had particularly ships, that such unhappily was the situaalluded to the tithe system of Ireland as a tion of Ireland, that all the distress arising crying grievance. from the change in the currency, and the depressed value of agricultural produce, had necessarily affected that country in a far greater degree than this. In this Mr. Daly said, that although he should country there was a powerful manufacnot object to the bringing in of the bill, turing interest, which had, by its resist he would oppose it in every subsequent ance, broken the weight of the agricultural stage. He would move next session for distress; but Ireland being nearly altothe appointment of a committee to in-gether agricultural, had suffered from the quire into the propriety of a commutation of tithes. Mr. Carew contended, that there could be no repose in Ireland until a commuta tion was effected. Sir N. Colthurst thought a commutation necessary, with a view to the tranquillity of Ireland, and the security of the established church. He would not consent to any commutation that did not meet with the approbation of the clergy. Mr. Foster contended, that the effect of the bill would rather be to excite than to tranquillize Ireland. Mr. R. Martin said, he would vote for the introduction of the bill, and he should vote for it in all its stages. Colonel Forde supported the motion as a stepping stone to a full consideration of the whole question. Leave was given to bring in the bill. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, June 14. STATE OF IRELAND.] The Marquis of Lansdown rose, in pursuance of notice, to call their lordships' attention to the state of Ireland. In doing this he was conscious that he could not be accused of precipitation. After all that had occurred since the meeting of Parliament relative to Ireland-after the promises which had been made that the state of that country should be brought under the attention of Parliament-after the change which had been made in the government of Ireland, without producing those advantages which had been expected from it-after the period to which the present session had depressed state of that interest in a much greater proportion than the other parts of the kingdom. If it were necessary, in calling their lordships attention to the state of Ireland, to show that the situation of that country was one of peculiarity, he need only refer to the statutes by which it had for a period back been governed; to the laws which had been passed with the view of preserving tranquillity within these last few years; to the laws, even, which had been enacted during the present session; to the language which had invariably been used by the proposers and supporters of those measures; and to the admissions made by the opponents of all severe laws. When it had been proposed, that in a part of the United Kingdom trial by jury should be suspended, that arbitrary power should be given to the magistrates, that the public money should be voted to find food and employment for the poor, surely he need not occupy the time of their lordships in proving that the situation of that part of the empire in which such measures had been thought necessary was peculiar. It was admitted on all hands, that trial by jury was one of the most valuable privileges of the constitution; yet, for the enjoyment of this excellent institution, Ireland, it was said, was not fit. That it was dangerous to the liberty of the subject to invest magistrates with arbitrary power was generally acknowledged; yet it was maintained, that there was something in the state of Ireland which rendered the exercise of arbitrary power indispensable. That it was was mischievous to interfere with the regular course of supply and demand in the market was a principle no less generally recognized; but, so singular was the situation of Ireland, that this great principle of political economy must be violated. If this was true-if what produced good in all other parts of the world only produced evil in Ireland-if the cup which conveyed to others a salutary draught-no sooner touched the lips of that country, than its contents were converted to a deadly poison, was he not entitled after twenty years of union between the two countries, to call for an inquiry into the state of Ireland? To what was the condition of Ireland to be attributed? Was it because she possessed a most fertile soil? Was it because her insular situation was most favourable to commerce? Was it because she was blest with a temperate and genial climate? Was it because Providence had bestowed on her every thing calculated to ensure riches and prosperity? Unfortunately, in spite of all her national advantages, Ireland continued poor in the midst of wealth, barbarous in the midst of civilization. That constitution which was said to confer hap. piness on this country, was to Ireland only a source of evil. Their lordships must, then, look farther for the origin of the mischiefs: they must look for them in the institutions and system by which that country had long been governed. The object of their inquiry ought to be, to ascertain what connexion subsisted between the system of government and the state of society. In undertaking such an inquiry, it would be wrong to describe the conduct of individuals as the cause of the evil, or to throw a stigma on any particular class of persons. The state of Ireland was not to be attributed to the misconduct of the landlords, or of the clergy. These classes in Ireland consisted of men who had received the same kind of education as the like classes in England. Their conduct was, therefore, to be ascribed to the state of society, and the institutions under which they were called upon to act. In this view of the subject, their lordships must necessarily look to the general state of the population, and to the nature and effect of the burthens which that population had to bear. By a paper which he held in his hand, it appeared that the population of Ireland was estimated in 1695, at 1,034,000 souls: in 1731, at 2,010,000 in 1791 at 4,200,000: in 1811, at 5,400,000: and that in 1821, it had risen to 6,846,000. It had been calculated that whilst to the population of England the land bore the proportion of 3 1-9 acres to each individual; to that of Ireland the land bore only the proportion of 25-6 acres to each individual. It appeared also that of this population in Ireland the proportions were 1-14th of the established church, 1-14th Presbyterians, and 12-14th Catholics. It was not for the purpose of calling their lordships' attention to the great importance of this population as forming part of the physical strength of the empire that he had thus particularly noticed it; but to remove a very prevalent error, that an increase of population necessarily indicated a corresponding increase in wealth and prosperity. On the contrary, the peculiar condition of Ireland proved that there might be a state of society in whichthe population rapidly increased, while the true sign of wealth and prosperity, the facility with which each individual found for himself a comfortable subsistence, was considerably diminished. This was a consequence of that system of gradual degradation by which the great mass of the population had been reduced to subsist entirely on the lowest kind of human food, and that which the slightest labour could supply-he meant potatoes. The effect of this habit was, to produce an indifference to comfort, and to incline individuals of the labouring class to look forward only to a bare existence. In such a situation the peasant considered himself justified in marrying, though he had no other means of maintaining a family but the potatoes he might raise in a small garden. It was on account of the state of degradation into which the peasantry of Ireland had fallen, that scenes had been witnessed which had been so faithfully anticipated by the Poet: "When scourged by famine, from the smiling land, The increase of population was not, therefore, an index of happiness. When degraded in the manner he had described, that increase was accompanied with the most serious evils. The unfortunate state of society had given an artificial spring to the population, and along with its increase the most salutary principles of the constitution had been perverted. He would here state one of the political evils which afflicted that country, by which the right of election, instead of being an advantage, was made an engine of degradation to the people. The circumstance to which he alluded was, the practice of letting land in common. This was carried to an extent which noble lords could hardly conceive. To enable a number of persons to vote at an election, it was usual to let a farm in common. He knew an instance of one farm for which no less than ninety persons were registered as freeholders. The farm would scarcely afford a subsistence to each individual, living in the state of degradation he had described. This, then, was a practice most likely to create a pauper population. To have so large a number of individuals as 90 registered for one farm, was, perhaps, an uncommon case; but instances of farms let to 20, 30, and 40 persons for election, purposes, were very common. Whatever respect he entertained for the elective franchise, he thought there could be no objection to limit the right of voting for one farm to one individual. This narrowing of the right would not be inconsistent with the principles of the constitution, and would be of great service to the country. He came now to a very important part of the subject; namely, the nature of the burthens which the population of Ireland had been made to bear. And here he had to point out one of the most extraordinary misapplications of the principles of taxation that had ever been made in any country -a misapplication which, while it robbed the people of their comforts, diminished the public resources. No such instance of pernicious absurdity he believed could be found in the whole history of fiscal mal-administration. The revenue of Ireland in the year 1807, amounted to 4,378,2411. Between that year and 1815, additional taxes had been laid to the estimated amount of 3,376,000l. From these were to be deducted 400,000l. remitted at the end of the last war. Now, the whole revenue of Ireland in 1821, was 3,844,889%.; so that the effect of adding three millions of taxes had been, to produce a revenue less by several hundred thousand pounds than that of 1807. Thus while the poor were deprived of their comforts, less was extracted from them, and the revenue of the country was diminished. If there were any articles which might be regarded as the luxuries of the poor, they were those of tea and sugar. They were articles of consumption first resorted to beyond the mere necessaries of life, and announced the first approach to ease and comfort. The increased duty on sugar had produced a small augmentation of revenue: for whereas the produce of the duty was only 379,000l. in 1807, it had been 404,000l. on an average of the last five years. But the consumption of the article itself had diminished from 338,000 to 267,000. cwts. In the article of tea the revenue itself had diminished since the duty had been raised. The average produce of the Irish duty on tea, between 1807 and 1809, had been 527,6037. whilst in 1819 and 1820, it had been only 451,300l. These were really taxes on civilization. He remembered to have heard it observed by an attorney-general for Ireland, that every additional house which was built in that country was a pledge of security and attachment for England. He wished their lordships to apply this principle to all other comforts. Every thing which tended to urge men to extend their ideas, to habituate them to the enjoyments connected with social ties, had the certain effect of insuring tranquillity. He should, however, be taking a very imperfect view of the subject, were he to limit his condemnation of the imprudent increase of public burthens to its effect in diminishing comfort. Their lordships must not fail to look also at its influence on morality. He had now before him a statement, which would show the effects of the increased duties on distillation in Ireland. Such was the state of the revenue laws, that the contraband distiller, upon the outlay of 9l. could realize 277. Such was the extent of the temptation to the violation of the laws, that every illicit still became a school for resistance to the government-a nucleus round which the spirit of disaffection gathered. Thus was a bounty held out to the peasant for violating the law, and the prisons of the country filled with persons to be educated for still greater offences. In the course of the last six years, 5,350 persons had been committed for offences connected with illicit distillation; and out of that number 3,963 had been convicted. When their lordships considered the imperfect condition and discipline of the Irish prisons, they would be able to form some estimate of the addition which these commitments on account of illicit distillation were likely to make to the general mass of crime in that country. The man who was driven into prison for a comparatively slight offence, would most probably come out a hardened depredator. |