had been a cessation in any respect in a mission, then the presumption must be against ministers, and the onus must be thrown on them of justifying their conduct not only in the face of parliament, but in the face of the public at large. If he were to submit to such a practice, the House must indeed think him unfit for his office. An argument more strained than the hon. member's through all his details to establish his conclusion, he had never heard. It was founded particularly on the case of Mr. Braun, who had been there from 1782, to 1792. When he had adverted to this case last night, he had supposed that this appointment had been a sentence of degradation-a punishment for diplomatic offences. He had since inquired what had been the fact, and when he stated it, it would perhaps decide the question, whether there ought to be a wish to imitate all the circumstances of this case. He was not sure that it would be thought convenient or more economical by the gentlemen opposite, that all dispatches should be written in the French language. Mr. Braun had been an old Swiss officer on half-pay, attached, it was true, to this country. Mr. Norton, whose secretary he had been, had left him behind him there; but why no change had been made for nine years afterwards, he (lord L.) had not been able to ascertain. It might have been done to mark some displeasure felt towards the Swiss Cantons. It was not known what feeling might then have existed towards Switzerland. It was, however, a common mode of showing a feeling of coldness to appoint a minister of inferior rank, or with inferior salary. Those things had often been done; but if the doctrine now contended for were established, it could not happen in future, without the consideration of all its circumstances on the floor of the House. He believed Mr. Braun had been a very honest man; but he could not trace the influence of his mission in that country. From the period of 1792, when hostilities broke out, he could discover nothing to lead him to believe that any valuable consequences had resulted from Mr. Braun's having resided during those years as our minister in Switzerland. He did not think it safe to adopt the plan of the hon. member, and to withdraw our minister at the conclusion of a negotiation, and then wait till an extraordinary courier should announce that the neutrality had been actually violated. He did not believe, that | our minister, when sent back, would find the country in the best spirit to co-operate with him. He could not agree to the proposition, that we should not have a minister, unless there should be active employment for him where he resided. It was his business to ascertain what counsels they were about to adopt, and what other counsels might be suggested to them. Upon considering the facts detailed by the hon. member, he would contend that the whole stream of policy was in favour of the present appointment. Mr. Braun had been there from 1783; but in opening his case the hon. member had forgotten the different circumstances in which Mr. Wickham and lord Robert Fitzgerald had occupied the same station. Lord Fitzgerald had been there for four years, from 1792 to 1796, when he was succeeded by Mr. Wickham who, for a short time, had been chargé d' affaires, but was afterwards minister plenipotentiary till the peace of Amiens. But really he was fatiguing the House by proceeding in this argument, since no objection had been made to the individual. He could not see that any ground had been stated for the motion. Though the hon. member had introduced it in a very fair and liberal manner, still he must say that there appeared in other quarters a very uncharitable desire to run down the character of a private individual. He trusted, however, that the House would oppose itself to that desire, and would protect the characters of public men against dark hints and unfounded insinuations. He should not trouble the House with any further observations at present, as he was confident, from the vote of last night, that gentlemen had made up their minds to travel in the paths of their ancestors, which had conducted the country to greatness, power, and honour, and not to deviate from them into principles which were not admitted to be sound even by such states as acknowledged a democratical form of government. Lord Normanby said, that though he contemplated no such effect as the resignation of the foreign secretary, he nevertheless indulged the hope of seeing the noble marquis continue in office, without the appendage of a Swiss Envoy, at an expense to the country of 5,000l. a year. He disclaimed all personal objections. He did not deny the competency of the gentleman who held that appointment to fulfil the duties, if by any accident duties were imposed on him. But he did resist the extravagant and extra- | Milbank, M. The previous question was moved on the first resolutions and carried. On the last resolution the House divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 247. Majority against the motion, 106. Maberly, J. Powlett, hon. W. I. F. Tynte, C. K. Robarts, A. W. Rice, S. Rickford, W. Whitbread, Sam. C. Wilson, T. Whitbread, W. H. White, L. TELLERS. Warre, J. Graham, S. Grosvenor, hon. R. Grosvenor, gen. Althorp, lord Anson, sir Geo. Bentinck, lord W. Burdett, sir F. Boughey, sir J. Bright, H. Birch, Jos. Benett, John Browne, Dom. Barham, F. Beaumont, T. Gurney, H. Campbell, hon. G. P. James, W. Johnson, col. Lockhart, J. I. Cavendish, lord G. A. Lemon, sir W. Lloyd, sir E. Mostyn, sir T. Ridley, sir M. W. Normanby, lord IRISH POOR EMPLOYMENT BILL.] Mr. Goulburn rose to move for leave to bring in a bill "for the Employment of the Poor in certain districts in Ireland." The chief object of the measure was, he said, to enable the population to earn their subsistence by their own exertions, as the greatest and most substantial benefit that could be conferred upon them. It was well known, that there many large tracts of land in Ireland utterly impervious, where there was little or no communication, and where crimes were frequent from the means afforded of escape. By the present measure, it was proposed to place a certain sum at the disposal of the lord lieutenant, to be by him applied to the construction of new roads, in those districts where the suffering was most severe. The work, it was intended, should be executed, not under local authority, but by officers appointed immediately by government. A want of means had hitherto prevented the counties in question from undertaking this improvement but as soon as the advantages were realized, and the estimates of their expense submitted to the grand juries, no doubt could be entertained of their disposition to repay the sums advanced. Sir W. De Crespigny felt anxious that the benefits of this measure should be rendered permanent. Mr. S. Rice warmly approved of the bill, as one of the wisest measures that could be adopted. Sir E. O'Brien complimented the DISTRESS IN IRELAND.] The Earl of Darnley adverted to what he had said on Wednesday, respecting the distressed state of a part of Ireland, and wished to know whether the noble earl was now prepared to give the date of the first communication from the government of Ireland respecting an apprehended scarcity in that country. The Earl of Liverpool said, he had no hesitation in giving the information requested. The marquis Wellesley in the course of a few days after he had taken upon him, the government of Ireland, had resorted to measures for the purpose of obtaining information as to the state of Ireland, both politically and with regard to the supply of food. It was found, that at that period there was a great abundance of articles of food, and at low prices, and no apprehensions were entertained of any scarcity. He thought it right here to observe that great delicacy and difficulty were necessarily involved in any question of interfering with regard to the supply of food; as such interference tended to do much mischief by interfering with individual speculations, and enhancing the price of articles of the first necessity. The only measure resorted to in this part of the empire with reference to such a subject, was the measure during the scarcity of 1800, of granting a bounty upon the importation of grain, and he believed all were now agreed that that measure did more harm than good, as the grain would have been sold at a cheaper rate, had the bounty not been given. He was fully aware that such a state of distress, under peculiar circumstances might exist, as to render it absolutely necessary for government to interfere; but still it was highly essential that such interference should only take place when it became unavoidable. It was in this view of the subject that the state of Ireland was looked to; and though it was desirable to avoid all interference on the part of government as long as possible, yet a strict watch was kept as to the state of that part of Ireland where distress was beginning to appear. It was found that only one article of food, that of potatoes, had failed, and that much distress had in consequence arisen in the county of Clare; but it was found at the same time that the oats were used for the purposes of illicit distillation, and that there was actually an exportation of grain going on from that county. The distress, however, was at length found to be of that charac ter and extent, that government interfered at the commencement of April, by cautiously sending a supply of food, and afterwards a supply of potatoes for seed. But whilst he felt that the government could not delay sending a supply for the relief of the distress that existed, he had looked to other sources as a much more eligible mode of relief; and he had with that view encouraged as much as possible the subscription which had been set on foot, and which had been so liberally supported, for the relief of the distress in Ireland. The Marquis of Lansdown agreed with the noble earl in his general principles, with regard to the inexpediency of the interference of government, in the supply of the markets; but it should be recollected that there was a distinction between the case of a general scarcity, and that of the partial failure of a particular article of food. In the present instance, the distress had arisen, not from any general scarcity, for on the contrary, there was an abundance of grain; but from the failure of one article of food, that of potatoes, and that too in the garden of the peasant, and upon which he depended for subsistence. Though, undoubtedly it would be highly inexpedient to interfere with the markets in the case of a general scarcity, yet, under the special circumstance of the partial failure of one article of food, it became absolutely necessary to extend relief; and, therefore it was, that he rejoiced in the liberality of those individuals who had so promptly entered into a subscription for the relief of that distress. He highly approved also of the bill brought into the other House, for affording employment to the poor of Ireland. The fact was, that the poor peasants, whose potatoes had failed, had been compelled to resort for subsistence, to the consumption of their pigs and cows, and were left without the means of paying any rent. The landlords, who depended upon their rents, were thus compelled to suspend all the works they were carrying on; the labourers employed in those works were in consequence discharged; and thus the distress was continually increasing. He trusted, that as in the beginning of the session their standing orders had been suspended, for the purpose of passing coercive measures with regard to Ireland, there would be no hesitation in now adopting a similar course with reference to a measure for relieving the poor of that country, by affording them the means of employment. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, May 17. ROMAN CATHOLIC PEERS BILL.] The bill was read a third time. On the question, that it do pass, Mr. Secretary Peel said, that as the bill had undergone a full discussion, and as the sense of the House had been fairly taken on the subject of it, he would not persist in what he had no doubt must be an unavailing opposition. He trusted, however, that his not pressing the House to another division, would not be construed into any want of decision, or any diffidence of the opinions he had delivered on this important bill. Mr. Canning could not do justice to his own feelings, or to the conduct which had been pursued by his right hon. friend, if he did not declare, that the course he had pursued upon this occasion reflected on him the highest credit. Entertaining the strong sentiments which his right hon. friend was known to cherish upon this subject, it was impossible that he could have acted in a more candid, a more liberal, or a more handsome manner. Next to the gratification he should have felt in having his right hon. friend for a supporter, was the satisfaction of having had such an opponent. BILL.] Mr. Robinson moved the second reading of this bill. Sir W. Curtis asked, who had called for such a measure? None, but such as acted from motives entirely interested. He should oppose the bill in every stage, on account of its decided interference with those navigation and revenue laws under which the kingdom had flourished during so long a period. The only advantage that could accrue from it must be to America; since, it would allow her ships to load at ports in our West India colonies, and to sail directly for the United States. Mr. Serjeant Onslow conceived, that upon every ground of justice, policy, and humanity, the country was bound to thank his right hon. friend for bringing forward this bill. Since the period at which the existing laws were framed, the country had acquired, by the result of two successful wars, a large addition of extensive, valuable, and important colonies; and towards those colonies, the measure was an act of absolute justice. The bill was read a second time. COLONIAL TRADE BILL.] On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill, Mr. Fowell Buxton rose to remind the House, that last year the chancellor of the exchequer had stated, that a proposition, as to East India sugars being imported into this country on the same terms that sugars from the West Indies were, might be referred to the committee on foreign trade. That, however, had not yet been done; and as this bill greatly interfered with the question of adopting such a proposition, he wished to ask the right. hon. gentleman when it was intended to bring it forward? Certain facts had recently come to his knowledge which attached additional importance to this question. By a very able pamphlet lately written by an intelligent merchant of Liverpool, a Mr. Cropper, it appeared that the tax levied by the West India importers upon the public in profit on their sugars, over and above the profits which the public would have to pay on other sugars, was no less than 1,500,000l. per annum. Now, to that pamphlet an answer had been published, under the sanction of the West India merchants; and even there it was admitted, that West India sugars were sold at 5s. per cwt. dearer than sugars WEST INDIA AND AMERICAN TRADE from the East Indies could be sold at, VOL. VII. Sir T. Lethbridge said, he could not arrest the progress of the bill in that House; but he might at least be allowed to thank God, that there were three estates of this realm-the King, Lords, and Commons. The bill was then passed. 2 X supposing the rate of duty to be the same. Now, 5s. per cwt. was equivalent to 5. per ton; and it being admitted that 200,000 tons were annually imported into this country, here was a tax of 1,000,000l. a-year paid by the consumer on West India sugars, in consequence of the West India monopoly, and for the sole benefit of the West India merchants. The East India merchants, as he understood, had prepared a petition to that House, in which they represented, that if an ad valorem duty were imposed upon "all" sugars imported into this country, according to their quality, the price to the consumer would be greatly reduced, and the consumption itself very largely increased. They conceived that sugar, which now fetched 6d., would in that event realize not more than 3d. per lb., and that the effect of such a reduction of price would relieve the country, taking into consideration the entire annual importation and the average annual prices, from a tax of not less than 16,000,000l. per annum. He did not pledge himself for the accuracy of this calculation; but, taking the result to be only in fact 8,000,000l., nay, if it were only 4,000,000l., the question for the consideration of parliament became one of immense importance. The value of the East India trade had increased in a most extraordinary degree. The cotton sent hither in 1792 was not more than 100lb. In 1813, it had increased to 100,000lb.; and in 1820, to 1,000,000lb. No parliamentary return, subsequently to 1820, had yet been obtained; but he had every reason to think that the importation, which in 1792 was to the amount of 100lb. only, would be found to be, in 1822, 2,000,000lb. There seemed to be, in short, no saying to what extent this trade might increase. He believed he was warranted in saying, that no return was so valuable as sugars. Sugars were in this country always a marketable commodity to the importer; and from their weight and stowage they were almost the best article to the freighters. He thought it would be found that a matter of greater importance could not be brought under its notice. Mr. Robinson said, he did not happen to be in the House when the discussion to which the hon. member alluded took place. The fact, however, was, that last year an act was passed, imposing a duty upon East India sugars, which act would expire this year. If it should be proposed to parliament to renew that act, the discussion to which the hon. gentleman seemed desirous that the House should now be led, would in due course come on. At the same time, it did not naturally follow the adoption of such a bill as the present, that the duties on East India sugars would be assimilated to those which were paid on sugars imported from the West Indies. Mr. Bright thought, that the East India question stood on very different and distinct grounds from any upon which the interests of our West India colonies could be imagined to rest. The East Indies by their natural situation could not be made more accessible to the rest of the commercial world than they now were. The nature of our communication with them was liable to very little alteration. But in regard to our intercourse, and the intercourse of other powers, with our West India colonies, we were very differently situated. He, therefore, implored ministers to put the minds of those who were interested in the West India trade at rest, by specifically declaring what were the intentions of government. A very large capital was embarked in this extensive branch of our commerce; and a very strong and painful interest was excited among its principal members, as to the ultimate views of ministers with respect to this subject. Mr. W. Williams said, that the hon. gentleman who had just sat down appeared to be against all monopolies but the monopoly enjoyed by the West India merchants. The great object of the bill was, to allow to our colonies free intercourse and communication with every part of the world; and he apprehended that if the trade in sugar was not thrown open, considerable mischief must ensue to the commerce of Great Britain. Under the present regulations, the consumption was rather declining than increasing. In the short period of three years the quantity of sugars on hand had diminished from 82,000 to 62,000 hogsheads. If sugars were allowed to be exported to every part of Europe, the consumption would be very materially increased." Mr. C. R. Ellis thought, that the East India merchants had no just claim to such a benefit as the hon. member for Weymouth had put in for them. They were, in effect, asking for the ruin of those who had virtually abolished the slave-trade. The representations of those for whom |