I should also think that it would be rather tough on any special students which there might be in any room, who might not be studying the same subjects as the rest of their classmates. While the rest of the class was studying German, for example, if they did not happen to take that subject, they would have to pick up their drawing tools and go out into the hall-which seems to be the only other place provided-in order that they might work without interruption.

The plan seems to me to be hardly sufficiently flexible to meet the conditions which we find in almost every engineering school.

PRESIDENT HOWE: Referring to the plan of this building proposed by Professor Raymond, I shall be glad to know how it works out. It seems to me the plan has the objection made by Professor Baker, that it is very expensive. Each student is in his room at work less than half of the day and during the rest of the day the room is unoccupied. This is certainly a very expensive way of treating any plant. If the number of students increases a very much larger building will be required and we will find that that means a larger expenditure. I see the plan contemplates one large engineering building, that is, all the laboratories under one roof. I am inclined to the belief that it is better to have a separate building for each department, each professor having his own building absolutely to himself, so he can control it, and where he will not be disturbed by any other department. We have found such a plan to work out better both for the professors and for the students than one large building.

PROFESSOR ALLEN: As I stated to-day in some other

discussion, I find it very convenient to have in one class as many as seventy-five at one time. It would be inconvenient for part of my work to divide the class into sections. Where I give the problems in the class it would be inconvenient, practically impossible, for me to divide the class into three parts and provide separate problems for the different sections. So for my individual work, a room to accommodate seventy-five to one hundred is very desirable, or really necessary, and I am inclined to think many others would have occasion for rooms of that size.

Referring to Professor Howe's criticism, if it is true the desks in the drawing-room are to be unoccupied a considerable length of time, isn't that an arraignment of the drawing-room rather than an arraignment of Professor Raymond's particular scheme? It seems so to me.

PROFESSOR WALDO: I want to ask Professor Raymond if his idea is that the students shall be in their places, at their desks, for a good part of the day when they are unoccupied, using their desks as study tables, under this provision?

PROFESSOR MARBURG: In planning the new engineering building at the University of Pennsylvania, an important aim kept in view was to apportion the space for draughting rooms so as to provide a separate desk for each student. A large future increase of students will, of course, make this impracticable without a corresponding enlargement of the building, but, for the present, each student will have his individual desk which will be accessible to him at all hours. That is to say, each student can command a quiet place for draughting

or study at any time which will be strictly his own. This means, of course, that the room in question will never be occupied by a class or section to which he does not belong. The importance of making such provision for the legitimate needs of a student seems evident.

The desks referred to have been carefully planned and contain a closet of suitable size for holding three or more drawing boards, a large shallow drawer for keeping drawings and paper, and a smaller drawer for drawing instruments, books, etc. The closet, as well as the two drawers, can be locked simultaneously by a single keyless combination lock.

PROFESSOR RAYMOND: Answering Professor Baker, who suggested the rooms are not always in use, that is entirely true. The plan is designed for efficient teaching rather than for economy. I think we cannot have an educational plan with the same economy of furniture and machinery as in a manufacturing plant if we are to turn out the best educational product possible.

Professor Williston asks a question and the last sentence in the description answers it.

Professor Allen says he would like to have some large rooms. We have them and they are shown on the plan. Sometimes we want a large space for lectures, and it is provided.

Relative to the question "When not engaged could they use the desks?" they not only may but are required to.

PROFESSOR WALDO: May I ask whether there is a monitor or teacher present?

PROFESSOR RAYMOND: Yes, sir; always somebody present. Professor Marburg suggested forty to fifty

tables. The table arrangement you see on the plans means study desk and drawing table, twenty-two of each in each room, supposed to accommodate twenty-two men. We have small rooms, too, as is shown on the plan.

PROFESSOR SWAIN: I would like for my own information to ask if each student has a desk he can call his own. PROFESSOR RAYMOND: Yes, sir.

PROFESSOR BAKER: At the University of Illinois we have drawing desks that will accommodate two students at a time, so a pair of students can use a desk in the morning and another pair in the afternoon.

PRESIDENT HOWE: We can put four men at a table but each man has his own drawer in which he can put his board and drawing instruments and lock it up.

PROFESSOR MARBURG: One of the things we have to look out for is drawing tables. It is very difficult to get two men to work at one table. We have designed our tables somewhat regardless of cost. We designed our table from the standpoint of maximum efficiency and we thought it would cost probably twenty to twenty-five dollars, but in large quantities we find they can be supplied for fifteen dollars.

PROFESSOR BAKER: You mean fifteen dollars per student?

PROFESSOR MARBURG: Yes, sir.

PROFESSOR WALDO: As I understand Professor Raymond's idea, it is a sort of double arrangement. He proposes to put these students where they can at any time call upon somebody present to assist them in problems, and, also, that somebody will always be present to keep them from tearing down the building.

PRESIDENT HOWE: The University of Pennsylvania has a large building and it is a large building described by Professor Raymond. I understand that of the University of Pennsylvania is to cost eight hundred thousand dollars. That is more than the ordinary technical school can put into building. At the Case School of Applied Science we are obliged to use drawing tables that cost two dollars and a half and which we designed ourselves.

DEAN TURNEAURE: We have fourteen students per desk.