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a banquet in the beginning of his administration workmen and foremen in the various industries about Pittsburg and said to them in a very pleasant way that the school was not started for the sake of the millionaires but for the children of such as were present. That idea was emphasized in every way and it brought about an adhesion to his plans. On this basis the school was started and it is meeting in Pittsburg with the favor of those for whom it was planned. I imagine something of this kind must be done to make trades schools possible where dependent upon public funds. Of course, private trades schools may, if they choose, ignore the opposition of the unions, if it exists.

PROFESSOR WILLISTON: In Massachusetts and in some other places, I believe, the question of giving government support to trade schools has already been very seriously considered. Massachusetts at present gives some support of this kind to one particular kind of trade schools, and has done so for a number of years. I refer to the textile schools. In three of the great textile centers the state has contributed to the support of these schools, which carry on in their evening classes work of a strictly trade character. The greater part of the work of the day classes in these schools, it is true, is of a more advanced character, and comes under the head of what might more properly be called secondary technical education, but there is sufficient trade instruction given in them to give a well-established precedent for the idea of state support for trade schools.

Thus far there has been no apparent opposition on the part of the labor unions in Massachusetts to the trade school movement, and if it is handled with wisdom

sources.

I think there is little danger to be feared from these In fact, if a school is started on the right basis in almost every community, I think it possible to have the sympathy, if not the active coöperation of the union men. The reason for my belief is this: The trade school is founded for the benefit of the workman, and not his employer (although these two ideas are not antagonistic). If this point is made perfectly clear, as it must be, and furthermore if this statement of the purpose of the school is strictly honest, as it must be, if the school is to accomplish the things for which it was founded, the workmen will appreciate the advantages which it offers and give it their individual support, even though it may not get the united support of their unions.

The point that I have tried to make clear here is, that there is no reason why trade school instruction and elementary technical instruction cannot receive just as generous public support as advanced technical education, or any other branch of education.

In this connection I would like to say just a word. regarding the work in Pittsburg and the Carnegie Technical Schools which have just been spoken of. I was one of the members of the Plan and Scope Committee of that school, and was associated with Mr. Hamerschlag on that committee for nearly two years on the preliminary investigations which were conducted before the work of the school was actually begun. This committee spent a large amount of time in Pittsburg studying the conditions in each of the important industries there. We went about among a very large number of shops and factories, interviewing men of all ranks who were picked for us as being typical and representa

tive men in their particular trades or calling. We also had meetings with committees or representatives of all the more important labor unions, and talked with their officials, and from not a single one of them was there one word of opposition to the school. The working portion of the community agreed that the trade and elementary technical classes which were to be organized would be of great help to them, and they were anxious to have the school started as soon as possible. Since that time they have watched the school with a great deal of interest-almost jealously, using every influence to be absolutely certain that it would not get away from the purpose for which Mr. Carnegie intended it. They have wished to make it impossible for this school to grow into an engineering school for the sons of wellto-do citizens on the one hand, giving an education entirely out of their reach, or becoming on the other hand, an elementary manual training school, which would be of comparatively little service to them.

PRESIDENT HOWE: The subject of technical education, manual training schools and trade schools is a very interesting one, but I take it that the paper and the remarks just made apply to entirely different questions. If I understand Dean Turneaure's paper he advocates the secondary technical school and the trades school, where the work is open to any man. The Carnegie Technical Institute in Pittsburg does not propose to follow that plan. As I understand the matter, it is to take only those recommended by the trade unions. It is impossible to find enough trained men in the trades to satisfy the demand when business is good. Trade unions limit the number of apprentices. I have always

supposed our trade schools in this country would admit any one to study any trade, but I find in the Carnegie Technical Institute that only those men who are actually in the trade as apprentices are to be admitted. No one is to be allowed to go there to study a trade independently. That is to say, membership in the Carnegie Trade School is to be controlled entirely by trade unions. And this is certainly a very different state of affairs from what is outlined in the paper of Dean Turneaure. I might say in this connection that Mr. Hamerschlag told me that only a small proportion of men who studied trades in the New York trades schools were able to obtain work because the unions would not permit them; only a small proportion, I think about ten per cent., of the men obtained positions in the trades which they had learned. And that is why they adopted the other plan in Pittsburg.

I was interested in Dean Turneaure's explanation of the work done at the University of Wisconsin, but it seems to me that there is some danger, perhaps, to engineering education. We try, as engineering schools, to do a broad line of engineering work. In this summer school at the University of Wisconsin a man is taught certain things in the laboratory in a very brief time. Suppose we take the case of testing boilers. When a manufacturer wants a boiler plant tested he goes to a mechanical engineer. This man not only knows how to do the work but knows why the work is done and is paid an expert's fee for doing it. If I understand the matter correctly at Wisconsin during the summer a fireman or an engineer may be given a course in boiler testing, so when he goes out he thinks he can test a boiler. In

the future therefore he will not only have the idea that he knows all about boiler testing, but the manufacturer, the man for whom he works, will think it is as easy to take the man to whom he pays three dollars a day and have him make the test on his boilers as to call in an expert in mechanical engineering and pay him an expert's fee.

PROFESSOR WILLISTON: In reply to what President Howe said of the Carnegie Technical Schools, I would like to say that there will be certain courses offered there for men who are already engaged in given trades, but who are not journeymen. There will be other courses offered, open only to those who are journeymen mechanics. The object of this kind of classification is precisely the same as the entrance examinations required for the different departments in other institutions. It is necessary, in order to do the most effective work, to group together into the same classes the men who have had substantially the same kind and amount of training experience. Without this explanation, I fear the statements that have been made might be misleading.

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