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very different position from those which are maintained by either private subscription or private subscription in connection with tuition. It had always seemed to him that the attempt to make money out of a student, any way you put it, is a fraud on the student. The student pays a certain amount for his tuition; if his tuition is reduced in consideration of a certain quantity of work he does, it seems to be fair, but it seems to be unfair to sell the products of his labor when the student pays a certain fixed amount of money toward getting an education. That is the first business of the institution. The question of making money, making machines, making apparatus that are to be sold, it seemed to him was not only secondary, but should be put about one-hundredth in the list of things. In many institutions the tuition is low, and it is low because to a very great extent it is possible to reduce the tuition because of the vested funds of the state or what not. In other cases the tuition is high, and where this is the case he was satisfied that many young men feel that it is an imposition if, after they are able to carry out certain mechanical processes, they are obliged to continue them for the purpose of producing products which will be valuable for the uses of the school or for the purpose of sale. It always seemed to him a great misfortune that a man should spend many many days or hours doing a particular kind of work. He remembered very distinctly having to polish up a connecting rod. He considered it then and he considered it still an absolute waste of time, and he was satisfied that many others would be of the same opinion,

many of his own students, if he should carry out the same system.

PROFESSOR R. C. CARPENTER was of the opinion, from visiting many of the school workshops which are being conducted, the system which is now in practice throughout the country is a sort of a mixed system, started with exercises, and making those exercises, so far as practical, of use to the school, and it seemed to him to be working very well. It did not seem to him that it would be practically as these gentlemen have described it, that is, he did not think the students have felt bitter at leaving in the school some specimen of their handiwork which will be useful to the school in the future. In fact he thought that they have taken pride in the matter of producing something which will be used. It had always struck him that in the management of these shops there must be a sort of spirit of enthusiasm produced in the students in order to get very good results, and that enthusiasm cannot be produced over dry exercises that go into the scrap heap after they are done. They went to see something which will live. Of course that cannot be produced until the student has a certain amount of skill, but he thought so far as possible the exercises should be made of a practical form, and should always follow the course of having the student first instructed in the use of tools by these exercises that have been described.

PROFESSOR RIPPER thought he should be stating what would be the opinion of some of his colleagues from England if he should say that this question, now under discussion, does not come to the front there at

all. In all their colleges in England their shop work is conducted in the interest of the student only.

They

do not, on any account, undertake work for commercial purposes. He believed there is one institution in England that does that, but it is a very severe exception. None of them would entertain for one moment any proposal to do work for sale. In regard to the work in the shops, he found it a very good thing indeed to allow the students to make things which, while they give them an excellent training, shall afterwards, when made, be the property of the student himself. He had found that exceedingly effective in getting up enthusiasm and in getting some really first rate work done. For example, his students have to make themselves a complete set of work-shop tools, squares, centre punch, spirit level and quite a large stock of interesting and useful tools. These are their own property when made, and the work was not allowed to pass until it was thought to be as perfect as it was reasonable to expect. The consequence was that, though they give quite a limited time to the work of shop instruction-practically one day in the week-yet at the end of the session they get some very good work done. They have also a number of workmen in the shop carrying on and doing work for the institution, and the advanced students help them. The question of the sale of work does not enter into this question there at all.

PROFESSOR S. W. ROBINSON thought the students might be classified with profit. The laboratory or shop work, as it has been called, divided into several classes, the first class involving merely the production

of form on the part of the student without reference to dimensions. If the student is required to do two things he is very likely to fail in one or the other. He found it unwise to ask a student to file a piece square and to a certain size at the same time. There should be a division into form and dimensions and after he has the form, then he may use his rule and calipers to work to size. This is merely an example of the work that should be done all through the course in shop work. In turning on the lathe, for instance, if the student wishes to turn a simple cylinder, it is hardly possible for him at first to produce a good cylinder to a certain size. He had been in the habit in that case of having the students undertake to turn the pieces first, trying to produce the correct form and surface, and let the dimensions come afterwards.

He thought that this matter of the production of work for useful purposes should, if done at all, be put in its right place. He would not attempt to produce work for a useful purpose as the first thing the student does, or very near the first of his shop work probably. A student should have at least one year's practice. before attempting to make anything for commercial purposes, and even then he will find that his work is poor enough. He had had experience in both systems, in places where they thought the school shops should pay, and also in places where the students worked on pieces that went into the scrap heap. He thought the latter was the better. If the two must be, he would favor putting off the commercial part of it until the student had had considerable experience in producing

what should be produced. If the student has enthusiasm for making something, as had been said, let the time for that be taken in vacation, or time outside of the time used by the student in shop practice.

PROFESSOR H. H. TRACY said that while he did not wish to judge of the merits of the two systems in use, especially after such eminent men had discussed them in full, he could not refrain from saying a few words in defense of the first named system, i. e., that of the Worcester Polytechnic Institute. Being a graduate of that institution, he could but feel that the impressions which some of the previous remarks would convey were erroneous. Professor Robinson's difficulty in getting the student to work to size and at the same time learning how to work is a natural one. While he is directing his attention toward quality, he forgets quantity, but it seemed to him this is largely overcome by the method of training in wood-work spoken of by Dr. Thurston. If he was not mistaken, that preliminary course of wood work precedes the ironwork in practically all of the manual training schools.

It was his experience that this training in making a set of patterns which must stand a severe test of measurement is such in the Worcester school that when the student gets to the machine shop the number of spoiled pieces from poor workmanship is exceedingly small. Professor Jacobus's point would be a good one. if strictly applicable. There is but little work, however, in the great variety found at the Worcester shops which any student is not required to do. In fact, in order that a man may not repeat any one class of work

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