situation under the King for many years, and the same salary that was given to that gentleman had been continued to colonel M'Mahon. Undoubtedly it was to be deemed a new office; and if the question were put to him with a view to ascertain whether it were his opinion that the nomination was such as to vacate colonel McMahon's seat in that House, he should answer that it was included in the act of parliament. Mr. Ward remarked, that his object was to obtain information as to the duties of the office. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the duties were various and important, although the offices would carry with them no official sanction, as the Secretary of State for the Home Department would still continue to be the fit organ for receiving and communicating the pleasure of the Prince Regent. Mr. Whitbread wished to know whether, before the nomination of colonel Taylor as private secretary to the King, any such place had existed? Under the infirmity of sight of his Majesty, no one could doubt of the necessity of such a confidential servant, but as little hesitation could be felt in conceding that no such of ficer would be required by the Regent. He was anxious likewise to learn (the place having been made a State Office by The Gazette,) whether the nomination of col. M'Mahon was to be paid out of the same fund as that from which col. Taylor derived his salary? The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that the hon. member being in possession of all the facts, he could, if he thought fit, bring the matter formally under the consideration of the House. He admitted, that before the infirmity of the King no private secretary had been appointed; but from the great accumulation of public business, from various causes, those who expected that the person occupying the throne could fulfil all his functions without assistance, would look for impossibilities. Mr. Ward inquired whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have any objection to mention who advised the appointment? The Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have not the least difficulty in stating, that I advised it. Mr. Wynn suggested the propriety of passing a special enactment, by which it should be provided that appointments under the Regent should vacate seats in the House, as well as appointments under the King, to which the statute now applied. The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that he thought the act, as it was now worded, would include both: if not, however, the defect could be remedied. He was not at all prepared to say that appointments to offices under the Regent, as duke of Cornwall, were, or whether they ought to be embraced by it. Mr. Wynn remarked, that his question referred to appointments of lords of the bedchamber, &c. under the Prince Regent. In such cases the act might perhaps be evaded. PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE PRINCESSES.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day, for the House going into a Committee of Supply, to take into consideration the Message of the Prince Regent. On the motion, that the House do now resolve itself into the said Committee, Mr. Creevey objected to the Speaker's leaving the chair. He did not wish that the discussion should take place now, but that it should be deferred to some future day. No difference of opinion could exist as to the necessity of a suitable provision being made for the Princesses. But his fisst general ground of objection to the proposition now made, an objection which he had stated on a former occasion, was, that the charge would fall upon the consolidated fund, to which the public creditor looked for his security, and which, in the last year, had fallen far short of its amount in the year preceding. It appeared from the papers before the House, and now in his hand, that the revenue of the consolidated fund, up to the 5th of January last, had decreased in comparison of the year ending the 5th of January, 1811, to the amount of 3,500,000l. It could be shewn that the consolidated fund had decreased 1,000,000. in the taxes which supplied it, while an additional charge of 1,500,000l. had been laid upon it. And although there was at this moment a surplus of this fund, might not the time come when there should be none? and to this period they were bound, in their calculations, to look. They ought, therefore, to do now what they had done in 1786 and 1793, in the government of lord Grenville and lord Harrowby, appoint a committee to enquire into the state of the taxes, their produce and application, be Mr. Rose, with respect to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman respecting the securities of stockholders, had to observe, that by an act of the 47th of the King, it was provided, that if in any quarter the consolidated fund should be found unequal to the charges on it, the first supplies of the year were to be applied in aid of it, and this he conceived was sufficient to make the Stockholders easy about their securities. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had to offer a very few words on what had fallen from the hon. gentleman opposite, who had again stated what was likely to produce a very improper effect upon the pub, lic mind, if permitted to go abroad uncon fore they laid a new charge on the consolidated fund. He wished to know how ministers had it in view to remedy this great falling off. They could only do it in one of three ways-by interfering with the securities of the stockholder-by laying on new taxes to make up the deficiency or by touching the sinking fund. Into all these matters the House ought to enquire before they proceeded. The stock market was agitated by strong feelings of alarm and distrust, lest the stock holders should not in time receive their interest; and instead of adding yearly, and even monthly, to the charges upon the consolidated fund, which would soon be unable to bear them, the right hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-tradicted. The hon. gentleman had stated, chequer would do much better if he increased its amount by the abolition of the places of two useless Tellers of the Exchequer, and the office of Registrar of the Court of Admiralty, now held by lord Arden. Why this provision for their Royal Highnesses had not been suggested at the time when the late arrangements for the Household were under consideration, he did not know, nor why the Regent, out of the 130,000l. which had been given to him, and for which there was no application, could not spare the sum of 36,000l. for his royal sisters, especially since the 58,000l. paid by the King out of the Civil List, to the Queen, was not required from the Regent. With the subject of the separation of the Prince and Princess of Wales, he (Mr. Creevey) on this occasion, had nothing to do, although it did strike him as a little extraordinary, that no additional sum had been given to the future queen of Great Britain, at the time her august spouse was invested with the regal dignity. There was now no court to create expènce; for the Princess of Wales, who was the representative of the Queen, from her situation, being separated from her husband, was not in a condition to employ the wonted splendour and shew of royalty. Her Royal Highness had only 17,000l. a year, when the Queen's allowance was 58,000l. Here was at once a great saving, and there were also others, which rendered it very easy to provide for the Princesses, without lay ing an additional charge of 36,000l. a year on the people. He concluded by moving, as an amendment, to insert in the motion the words "this day month," instead of the word "now," for the purpose, in the mean time, of examining into the amount of, and charges upon, the consolidated fund. that a diminution in the consolidated fund had taken place equal to 3,500,000l. and that thus the source to which the public creditor looked for security, was decreased in a degree to alarm him for his safety. But so far from this being the case, the amount of the difference between the years ending January, 1811, and January, 1812, was only 1,269,000l. and the hon. gentleman came to his erroneous conclusions by comparing the surplusses, and taking the additional difference of the war taxes into his calculation, which was not a just mode of trying the question. Neither was it a fair thing to draw a comparison between the best year the country ever knew, in point of revenue, and the last year, when the country was labouring under very considerable pressure; and the new taxes, intended to make up the deficiency, had not had an opportunity of producing their effect, so as to come within the results of the year laid before the House. He hoped the House would, therefore, see no ground, from the statement of the hon. gentleman, to believe, that they needed to be under any apprehension, with respect to the security of the public creditors, in agreeing to the proposition for a provision to the Princesses, which would this night be made to them. If, as the hon. gentleman had seemed to wish, this subject had been considered at the time the Prince's household arrangements were made, the sum for which he should move in the committee must in justice have been added to what they had voted at that time; but it had been thought better to bring this subject forward by itself, and on that ground it was postponed. The hon. gentleman had seemed to think, the sum they were to be called upon for in the committee might have been easily spared out of the Civil List. This might appear so to him, as he compared the 17,000l. given annually to the Princess of Wales, with the 58,000l. per ann. which had been given to the Queen by the King. The fact however was, that the same deductions were made from the Civil List in the hands of the Prince, as had been made from it when it was in the hands of the King, as her Majesty received her 58,000l. per ann. as formerly from the Civil List. The hon. gentleman was also mistaken in the sum which the Princess received, as he understood it to be 17,000l. including 5,000l. which she received as pin money, whereas she received 17,000l. exclusive of pin money. It had been augmented from 12,000l. to 17,000l. in consequence of its being thought necessary by the King to make a more ample provision for her than she had formerly enjoyed. In 1809, a representation was made to the duke of Portland, who then held the situation which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) now had the honour to occupy, that debts were due to various persons from the Princess of Wales, for which she had no means of providing. An investigation accordingly took place, and it was found that the debts amounted to 41,000l. Her income was at that time 12,000l. per annum, exclusive of 5,000l. pin money. The Prince, on that occasion, averse to any application being made to the public, took her debts upon himself, and at the same time conceiving that they might have been contracted in consequence of the insufficiency of her income to meet her expences, he augmented it to 17,000l. It was found on a farther investigation of the business, that her Royal Highness's debts amounted to 8,000l. more, and this sum, in addition to the 41,000l. before mentioned, the Prince also took upon himself. On a still more minute investigation of the subject, it was found that there was yet a small fraction more of 2,000l. and this last sum it had been thought reasonable that her Royal Highness herself should pay out of her increased income. The Prince thus, to prevent the charge being thrown on the public, took 49,000l. on himself of the debts of the Princess, although his royal father would doubtless willingly have consented to disburse a sufficient sum out of the Droits of Admiralty. The hon. gentleman thought there was now a large disposable fund in the hands of the Prince. This was not the case, as so large a part of his income as 70,000l. had been given to a commission under the seal of the Duchy of Lancaster, for the purpose of liquidating those debts which had before been under the consideration of that House. He strongly objected to postponing the committee. Mr. Whitbread concurred with his hon. friend in the propriety of postponing the committee for at least a month, not because the deficiency of the consolidated fund was so large as to shake the security of the public creditor, but because the statements of gentlemen on both sides of the House, holding the very same papers in their hands, were so contradictory as to prove, that a similar investigation to that which had taken place under lords Grenville and Harrowby, should be instantly commenced. He for one had understood that the Princesses were to live with the Queen, and on this account it was, he conceived, that the addition of 10,000l. had been made to her Majesty's income. He had told the right hon. gentleman, that even after that he supposed some provision would be proposed for the Princesses; but he thought that if such a provision were to be made for them, there was no necessity for adding 10,000l. to the income of the Queen. Unless that 10,000/ were given for the maintenance of the Princesses, it was difficult to imagine why it was granted, and the act itself afforded no information. It turned out however now, that the salary of the Princess of Wales was not sufficient, but why an addition had not been made to it at the time, when for no reason ou earth, 10,000l. per annum was voted to the Queen, and such immense, and almost unlimited grants were agreed to for the Prince, it was not easy to determine. His Royal Highness, however, took upon himself the discharge of the debts of his consort, but at a time when the Prince himself was deeply involved, from which embarrassments he was extricated out of the public purse in the most objectionable way that could be devised. It appeared to him to be one of the most complete juggles that was ever heard of, that a person should undertake to pay the debts of another to save the people that expence, while he came to get his own debis paid by that same people! The Prince undertook to pay the debts of the Princess of Wales, which he had no means of discharging, at a time when he was calling upon the public to enable him to pay his own. The House was told that a commission had been appointed to apply 70,000l. a year to discharge the debts of the Regent. It was a commission created by, and might year; if they fell to two, 20,000l. a year be absolved by the Prince, and there were was to be divisible between them; and if no persons responsible-there were no ad- to one, the survivor to have 12,000l. a visers answerable for the due application year. This was the provision which parof the enormous sum of 130,000l. which liament had enabled his Majesty to make had been given as a privy purse without for the Princesses in the event of his decontroul. The Prince Regent enjoyed a mise; but the melancholy circumstances privy purse of 130,000l. which was much which had taken place in the royal family, more than that of the King, which, at rendered it necessary that the House its utmost, amounted to only 60,000l. should take into its consideration the conWere they not then to view, with equal dition of those Princesses in the same way jealousy, the application of this sum in the as if the actual demise of his Majesty had possession of the Prince, exercising the taken place. The House were aware in powers of royalty, as they were in the what situation their Royal Highnesses now habit of viewing the uses made of a smaller stood, as forming part of the domestic sum by the King? Were they so little establishment at Windsor; and he did not read in history as not to have heard of know, therefore, that any provision, immeparliamentary influence? and were they diately to take place, might be necessary; not bound to guard against any chance of but he thought it of importance that they money granted to support the sovereign should be placed in a condition which dignity, being applied to purposes uncon- would enable them to form their separate stitutional and dangerous? He would like establishments if they wished it. It was to hear from the right hon. gentleman if his intention to propose, that to each of the he was aware of the amount of the debts four Princesses they should grant the sum of the Prince Regent? if he knew the of 9,000l. per annum, exclusive of the mode in which the money set apart was grant of 4,000l. each from the Civil List, applied to their liquidation? or if he was which being during pleasure was not to be answerable for the conduct of the commis- relied on as a certainty. He should theresioner to whom this office was intrusted?fore move for the sum of 36,000!. At the The creditors of his Royal Highness, by death of one of them he would propose, the mode now adopted, had no security at that the survivors should receive 10,000l. al! for the settlement of their claims. In per annum each; at the death of a sehis opinion the amount of these claims cond, the two remaining to continue to reought to be ascertained, the whole paid, ceive 10,000l. each; and on the death of and the grant of 70,000l. appropriated for a third, the sole survivor to receive 12,000. that purpose, revoked. This was the only per ann. This arrangement, the difference way of doing justice to all parties, and in the times considered, he did not think guarding the creditors against any loss would appear to the House as proposing through the demise of the crown. On an unreasonable advance on the sum orithese considerations he had again to ex-ginally named as a provision for the Prinpress his concurrence in the amendment cesses. He had no reason to suppose the that had been moved. Princesses would wish to remove from the establishment on which they were at present, but if they did not choose to remain there the whole year round, he thought it was unreasonable at the period of life to which they had attained, that they should not be allowed the means of forming an establishment of their own, or of changing their residence at any period of the year for their health, convenience, or pleasure. He concluded by moving, "That it is the opinion of this committee that an annuity of 36,000l. be granted to the King, to enable him to make a provision for the Princesses Augusta, Sophia, Elizabeth and Mary, instead of the annuity of 30,000l. formerly granted, to be payable out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain, and that it do supersede the former grants made in On this the motion was put and negatived without a division. The original question was then put and carried, and the House resolved itself into a committee accordingly. The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed that the House must be aware in what situation their royal highnesses the Princesses stood, with regard to the former parliamentary grant. An act had been passed in the 18th and another in the 39th of his present Majesty, empowering him to make a grant (contingently in the event of his Majesty's demise) of 30,000l. as an annuity to the four Princesses living at the time the acts were passed. In the event of these annuitants falling to three, they were each of them to have 10,000l. a the 18th and 39th of his present Majesty."|blished in 1804, at 960,000l. a year: from Mr. Tierney presumed that the right hon. gentleman, in proposing to give 9,000l. a year to the Princesses, assumed as a fact that his Majesty was defunct with regard to them. His proposition, therefore was, that to the 7,500l. a year, to which they were entitled under the former act, 1,500l. more should be added; and in addition to this annuity, which they were now called on to vote, their Royal Highnesses received 4,000l. a year each from the Civil List, during the pleasure of the Prince Regent, making their whole annual income 13,000l. This sum, great as it was, he by no means considered as too great for the separate establishment of each; but it appeared by the act of 1799, that it was in the contemplation of parlia. ment that the Princesses would live together, and why any gentleman should suppose, or take it for granted, that they would desire separate establishments, af fectionately forming one family as they did at present, he could not conceive. In that point of view, then, presuming that their Royal Highnesses would not form separate establishments, he thought the sum too great. But there was another consideration which struck him as very important. Would there be any saving to the Civil List by this grant? At present there was a charge in the lord steward's depart ment for table, attendants, dresses, &c. for the Princesses: was that to be continued? If it was, then a sum would be given to their Royal Highnesses which they did not want. His greatest objection to the present vote, however, was what he had stated on a former occasion, and which now no longer appeared a chimerical one. He alluded to the detached and piecemeal way in which the several additions to the Civil List had been made first 10,000l. then 20,000l. and so on, without the House ever knowing precisely what it was about. The general increase upon the Civil List expenditure had been very great. Before they came to a determination, they ought, therefore, to examine thoroughly into the Civil List, and form a comprehensive estimate of their revenue, and of the expences of that List, and of the royal family. Gentlemen were not, perhaps, aware of the extent to which these matters now went. He would read from a paper, he had in his hand, a statement of the Civil List revenue and the allowances to the royal family. The Civil List was esta(VOL. XXII.) this had been deducted, in the way of expence, 133,000l. which was the same as SO much being given to it, for that sum was still raised upon the public, and still paid to the Civil List. By an act of the present session, 124,000l. more were added, then 218,000l. out of the consolidated fund, as an allowance to the royal family; and if to this were joined the revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster amounting to 10,000l.; and of Cornwall say to 15,000l.; the vote of this session to the Regent of 70,000l.; another sum of 70,000l. granted to pay off incumbrances; the 4 and 4 per cent. duties, being 30,0001. and the sum now proposed by the right hon. gent. of 36,000l. the gross amount of the Civil List per annum, for the support of the royal family, would be at this moment 1,668,000l.; an enormous tax upon the liberality of the country. He hoped it would not be imputed to him that he wished to diminish the just and proper splendour of the crown; but he believed that there were great abuses in the expenditure of the Civil List, and he thought that the 36,000l. which they were now called upon to vote, might be saved from that Civil List by a due and fundamental enquiry into its several branches of ex. penditure. That enquiry, however, never could be efficiently made, because the right hon. gentleman, though he would grant a committee, had told them, “ you may examine accounts, but you shall not examine persons;" and he must know that it was impossible to come at the bottom of the Civil List expenditure without examining persons. He put it to the hon. chairman of that committee to say whether any progress had been made?-the answer must be "None," and he wished he had brought some of the papers in his pocket to shew the nature of the information they received. In the case of the foreign ministers, for instance, all they could learn respecting the difference be tween the estimate and the actual expence was, that the one was wrong and the other the fact. Looking at the question, therefore, in this point of view, he thought the House would confer a very hasty and ill-advised grant, if they voted the sum without previous enquiry into those subjects. There was yet another observation with respect to the Civil List which he wished to make, and that was with respect to the provision which it contained for her royal highness the Princess of (K) |
