he was most anxious to point out to the attention of the House was, that these perjuries were recognised in the courts of this country. To prove this fact, he should move for papers in a case where it being obvious and notorious to every one, that the master and every one of the crew were perjured, the vessel was restored on that perjured evidence, such being considered the machinery necessary for carrying on the Licence trade of this country. In the case to which he alluded, the vessel came to this country from Amsterdam; from hence it proceeded to St. Petersburgh, and from thence returned with a cargo to this country. There the master, mate, and all the crew, for the satisfaction of the Russian government, swore that they had pro haps too plainly, in rising at a very late hour on that night, when he found it, however, impossible to procure a hearing; but he had ever since felt, and still continued to feel the same anxiety to shew and to prove by uncontrovertible evidence how unfounded were the assertions then hazarded by that right hon. gentleman.He was fearful on that occasion, and his fear alone had induced him to intrude on the patience of the House, that his silence on hearing such statements and assertions made without contradiction, should have been interpreted into an acquiescence in their correctness and their truth. The reason stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for resisting the production of the papers asked for, namely, that it would be inconvenient, because, if they were to be grant-ceeded direct from Amsterdam to Russia, ed, it would be necessary for those on the and accounted for the length of time that other side to move for papers explanatory of had intervened by a fabricated statement the neutralizing system, seemed to him to be of tempestuous weather which they had most extraordinary, and in this opinion encountered, of bad treatment on an inhosthe House must agree with him, when it pitable island, and of interruptions by the was considered what the nature of those ice. Were it not that he understood from papers must be. The neutralizing system the right hon. gent. the Chancellor of the was one for the disguising of property, to Exchequer, that the papers he wished prevent persons in this country from dis- would not be granted to him, he should covering to whom it really belonged, and, have moved for the whole of this doubly to such perfection was it carried, that even fabricated history; and should have persons of the utmost astuteness were dis- shewn from the answer of the captain in appointed in their endeavours to come at the Court of Admiralty here, that during the fact. He should now proceed to shew the time he was struggling in the course to what extent perjury existed in the Li- of his voyage through the ice, as sworn to cence trade, and that it was necessary for in his affidavit in Russia, he was actually the continuance of that trade in this coun- in this country. He should not read the try. The first paper he should move for whole of these papers, which were of conwent to prove, that oaths were required to siderable length, but he simply stated these be taken on the continent, before any as their contents. When this case was vessel could be permitted to clear out, argued before the Court of Admiralty, a that she was to proceed to a port named, junior counsel, who, in the simplicity of or any other port, and was to carry such his soul, thought that a perjured document and such property. Every English port, could not be received in an English court however, and every species of English of law, was treated with contempt for his property, however, being always excepted. ignorance; and was almost hooted at by To prove this he should confine himself to his more experienced brethren, for objectone instance, where the captain having, asing to a document which was necessary was required of him, taken this oath on the Continent, made an answer in the Admiralty Court in this country, which he should also move for, that though previous to his clearing out from the Continent, he had sworn that he was not to proceed to any English port, yet in reality he was destined for the port of Leith. This, he presumed, would be sufficient to shew, that oaths were taken on the Continent that vessels were not to proceed to this country, when in reality they were bound for this country under licence. But what for carrying on the trade of this country. This doctrine was assented to by the court, and the objection was instantly over-ruled. He asked, was he not founded in justice, in saying, that this was a system so destructive to morality, and to the well-being of the country, that it ought not at least to receive the favour and protection of the Court of Admiralty of this country? There was another paper which he would have moved for, namely, a copy of instructions how to act in case of a vessel's being detained, as exhibiting a most dis gusting picture of the frauds which the country was reduced to practise, in order to be enabled to carry on this trade by licences. It would not be necessary for him to fatigue the House by an enumeration of the different false, fabricated, and inconsistent documents which these instructions recommended every captain to be provided with, so as to suit every emergency. It was sufficient to say, that perjury was universally practised throughout the whole system; and that it was even admitted and tolerated in our courts of Admiralty. That this was the case he had already explained in the instance of the vessel from Amsterdam, to which he had already alluded.For, if he could shew, which he pledged himself to do, if the papers were granted to him, that a single vessel had been liberated where it was evident all the documents were grounded on perjury, then there could be no doubt what the principle was, and that it ought to be looked at with horror and detestation. He could not say that, to his conception of the matter, the Court of Admiralty had done its duty. Was a person sitting in judgment to be told, that it was necessary to colour and protect property by fraud and perjury, to listen to that idea, because he was informed, as a reason for his doing so, that the perjury was committed, not for the purpose of deceiving this country, but for the purpose of deceiving our enemies? He could not listen to such reasoning. He must continue to have his ideas directed by the rules of justice. He could not swerve from his duty; but was bound to believe, that a person who would not scruple to perjure himself, or to take a false oath for the purpose of deceiving our enemies, would have equally little scruple in de ceiving us. Where were the limits to such a system, he asked, to be drawn? Where was it to stop? He did not know if such a question had ever come before any of our courts of common law. If it ever did, he sincerely hoped they would follow a different course, and would not give credit to perjured men and to perjured documents. The next article to which he begged to call the attention of the House, was the abuses resulting from this system, and from this trade. An hon. friend of his, when this subject was formerly before the House, called their attention to the fact of two licences having been granted for brandy, at a time when such licences were not generally granted, and when two such licences would have been well worth to any man, as it was stated, the sum of 15,000l. The excuse then made was, that this was a solitary instance of clerical inaccuracy, and, as such, was not of much importance. The papers he should have moved for on this subject, he conceived, might have been granted, notwithstanding the objection stated by the right hon. gentleman to the production of the other papers, for the papers on this subject were not at all met by the neutralizing system. What he begged, in the first place, particularly to allude to was, the antedating of licences. On this head he had a circumstance to state which would, in all probability, never have come to light, had it not been for the exertion of an active gentleman, who had been able even to trace an erasure on the subject in the council books. The case to which he referred was that of the Vrow Debora, for which a licence was applied for by Messrs. Baker and Son, to import a cargo of butter and cheese. This petition was presented on the 20th of January, and the answer was"refused." The vessel was afterwards captured, and, on the 30th of January, an application was made to have the licence granted, with an alteration or addition, that the cargo should be exported in a British vessel, and with this addition, the licence was granted. Mr. W. Rotherey, of Doctors' Commons, had made an affida vit on this subject, in which he stated the above facts, and that there was an entry in the council books, when he originally searched them, under date 20th January, to the effect that the application for a licence to the Vrow Debora was refused, but that on a subsequent examination in April following, the word refused' had vanished, and the word 'granted' appeared in its stead. He (Mr. Herbert) was satisfied the noble lord at the head of the Board of Trade, and the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Rose) had nothing to do with this; but, if such practices were suffered, what a door for corruption and fraud of every kind was thereby opened. He had in his possession a correspondence from the other side of the water, which shewed what was the opinion there entertained of the persons who had influence on the Treasury Board of this country, and went far to prove, that the statement of an hon. and learned friend of his on a late important debate-that the persons who had influence there were no better than hawkers and pedlars, was not too highly coloured : it went far to shew that the members of that Board were swayed by the advice of some persons who imposed upon them; and that, however pure themselves, they were operated upon by those who were not so. Before he proceeded to this correspondence, however, he begged to notice the fluctuating policy by which the Board of Trade were actuated, varying as it did every day, and thereby giving rise to the most mischievous speculations. The correspondence to which he referred, proved the existence of a trade in buying up licences which had expired, and fabricating excuses to the Board of Trade to induce them to renew such licences. Adverting to a correspondence from certain persons in Bourdeaux to an agent in this country, he stated, that in one letter the foreign correspondent directed his agent to give 3,000 franks for an expired licence, and to send it to him, that a story might be fabricated, or himself to fabricate a story such as might be calculated to induce the Board of Trade to renew it. In another letter a similar measure was recommended, and it was stated, that a traveller would be sent to meet the agent in England, so that the matter might be more cleverly concerted. It was also in the knowledge of this correspondent, as expressed in his letters, that another person had already successfully practised this iniquitous fabrication. In other letters this correspondent informed his agent, that if he could get two licences, one for the Isle of France, and another for Guadaloupe, he might give for the former 500l. and for the latter 700l.; and these sums he was afterwards authorised to increase to 2000 guineas. These sums, it was to be observed, were offered, not as if licences were an article which could be dealt in, but actually as bribes; and the same correspondent seemed to think that, by offering additional bribes, he could get the conditions of licences changed. Gentlemen might smile, supposing that he imagined that the Board of Trade had been bribed. That was not an idea which had ever entered his mind; but this he must be allowed to say, that the Board might have been necessitated to take advice from persons who had been bribed. Whether the licences so wished to be purchased had or had not been obtained, he (Mr. Herbert) had no knowledge. But this, at least, did appear, that there existed a belief in the ports of France that they might be obtained through bribery; a belief which it was hardly probable should have existed, unless it had been founded on experience. The only argument the right hon. gentlemen had used, or could use, for this practice, fraught with so many evils, and with so much ignominy to the country, was the recriminating one, that similar licences had been issued by their predecessors; but this fell altogether short, both in the extent to which, and the principle on which former licences had been issued. It was his opinion that the House of Commons ought to mark their sense of these proceedings, and therefore he should conclude by moving the following Resolution: "That the House sees with regret the system of fraud and perjury recognized and protected by the high court of Admiralty, as justifiable and necessary under the present circumstances of the commerce of the country; the abuses and corruptions to which the system is liable; the depraved example it holds out to the morals of the nation, dangerous to the fundamental principles of evidence, and encouraging a disregard of truth in courts of justice, where truth only ought to be admitted; as well as the unprincipled monopoly of conducting trade with an enemy by means of licences, from which neutral nations are excluded, on a plea of necessity, subversive of the most sacred principles of the laws of nations." Mr. Rose expressed his utter astonishment at the motion just read, calling upon the House, to pass the strongest censure upon the Court of Admiralty, without the slightest testimony being adduced to prove that it was well founded. He complained that the expressions which he had used in a recent debate on this subject had been much misrepresented; and he was convinced in his conscience that there was much less of perjury in the courts of Admiralty under the licence system, than what formerly existed in the neutral system. At that time, enemy's property was only introduced into this country through the medium of its being falsely sworn to be neutral property: whereas at present, there was no occasion for perjuries of that nature, as it could be introduced by licences. He was firmly persuaded, that if the system now adopted were abandoned, the consequence would be the extinction of the commerce of Great Britain. Mr. H. Thornton was surprized that the motion had not been confined to the production of papers, on which the hon. gentleman might, perhaps, have founded some future vote of censure. He admitted that frauds did exist, and thought that it would be fit that an enquiry should be instituted to ascertain their origin: and he deprecated receiving in our courts of Admiralty the testimony of men who were forsworn upon the continent. facture of England or colonial produce, to the value of 51. per ton, on the admeasurement of the exporting vessel) to export goods of English manufacture or colonial produce to the full value of the goods imported from France, and of any obligation to warehouse the French goods imported, until the exportation of English goods equivalent." HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, April 17. Mr. Ponsonby agreed that the Resolution read from the chair was ill-timed and imprudent, and that, notwithstanding the declared opposition that was to be given, it would have been better simply to have moved for the papers. He felt the full weight of the remark of the hon. gentle- TEN PETITIONS OF CHRISTIANS FOR LIman who spoke last, and was convinced BERTY OF CONSCIENCE.] Mr. Whitbread that no profit which Great Britain could said he held in his hand one Petition, derive from fraud, could compensate for and there were lying by his side, other the injury that would arise from the de- Petitions of an exactly similar nature, struction of the public morals. As to the signed by between 8,000 and 9,000 perproceedings of the court of Admiralty, he sons, praying for complete Liberty of was not prepared to give any positive opi- Conscience to all the subjects of the Brinion, without much previous inquiry, and sish empire. These Petitions were signed therefore moved as an amendment, "That by Christions of all denominations, disthis House will, on the 1st May, resolve senting from the church of England. It itself into a Committee of the whole House, was almost exactly similar to a Petition, to take into consideration the state of the which he had had the honour of presenttrade of this country as carried on by li-ing to the House on the same subject three cences." Should, however, this suggestion, as he supposed it would, be negativod, he should recommend to his hon. friend to move for the production of the various documents to which he had referred, years ago. In using the word "honour," he meant it not to be understood, not as in the ordinary course of expression, when a person presented any application to that House, but as expressive of the gratification which he felt, and honour which he esteemed to have been conferred on him, in having that Petition put into his hands The Chancellor of the Exchequer could not support the amendment, although he thought it not so objectionable as the Re-by one of the most enlightened and liberal solution, which conveyed a strong censure on the Admiralty Court, in the absence of the right hon. judge (sir William Scott). Mr. Brougham supported the motion. Mr. Marryatt and sir John Nichol opposed the motion. Mr. Thompson, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. A. Baring and sir John Newport supported it. Mr. Herbert replied, and the motion was then negatived without a division. It was then ordered, "That there be laid before this House, a copy of the Licences whereby permission is granted for importation of goods of the produce or manufacture of France, on the previous exportation of British manufactures or colonial produce to the amount of 51. per ton in value upon the admeasurement of the exporting vessel." Also, "A copy of any bond or obligation required of any merchant or others to whom licence has been granted to import goods of the produce or manufacture of France (upon condition of first exporting to France goods of the manu(VOL. XXII.) Christians in this or any other country. A man who, during a long life, had been distinguished for universal benevolence and charity, and who was still anxious, even at his advanced period of life, not to relax in his exertions, but to 'persevere to the ecd in that course, and for that object, for which he had laboured through lifegood will to his fellow men, and peace on earth! After having said this, he was satisfied that he had sufficiently designated the person to whom he alluded, to be the Rev. M. Wyvill. The Petitions which he had to present were from York, Sheffield, Leeds, Hull, Norwich, &c. The Petitions were then brought up and read, setting forth, "That the Petitioners were Christians, who consider absolute liberty of conscience respecting religion to be the unalienable right of all men, that it is the duty of all men to examine as diligently as may be in their power, the doctrines of religion, and after such diligent examination, to (2 E) that every attempt to influence men in their choice and profession of religion by penal laws, whether corrupt or compulsive in their operation, is contrary to the spirit of the gospel, and forbidden by its plainest precepts in numerous pasages, they hope it may be allowed them more particularly, and with all possible eereestness, to intreat the serious and sincere Christians in the House to interpose their endeavours, not only to vindicate the Gospel from the groundless charge of intolerance, but to influence this Christian state to conform its laws for the protection of the Established Church, to the purity, bènignity, and exalted integrity of the Yeligion of the Gospel, to renounce the whole system of persecution, the long accumulation of ages of barbarism and discord, and to free an almost countless multitude of injured individuals from the temptation of ensnaring tests, and the more oppressive severities of compulsive intolerance; by the success of such salutary counsels, at once restoring concord and safety to the empire, and freeing our national Church from the just reproach of retaining that support which persecuting laws can be. stow, but which Christianity condemns, and would disdain to accept.' " adopt and to profess what may appear to them to be the truth; and that, in the performance of that duty, men ought not to be obstructed or discouraged, or otherwise tempted to act hyprocritically, by any law tending to bias them in the course of such examination of the doctrines of religion, by subjecting them, in the case of their dissenting from the doctrines of any established church, to suffer death by burning or otherwise, or to suffer any corporal or pecuniary punishment, or to be injured in their reputation by any disability more or less dssgraceful; and that the Petitioners acknowledge, with high satisfaction, that, in the present reign, considerable progress has been made towards the full restoration of the rights of conscience, by the wisdom of parliament and the benignity of the king rescinding various laws, in whole or in part, which were violations of those rights; yet, since other penal laws, not less injurious to those rights, remain unrepealed, since some of these laws subject to corporal punishments or pecuniary penalties, others, as in the case of the test laws passed in the reign of king Charles the second, subject to disgrace, disability, and privation of civil rights, persons, whose only offence it is that, in conformity with their duty, they have examined the doctrines of religion, and by such examination have been in- Mr. Whitbread then said, that were it duced to embrace and to profess religious not for the circumstances of the present opinions different from the doctrines of times, he should bring forward a specific the Established Church; and that the Pe- proposition on the subject of these Petititioners feel it to be their duty humbly tions. Considering, however, that a right but earnestly to remonstrate against the hon. friend of his had given notice of a longer continuance of any of those into- motion which would shortly come before lerant laws; and they do, in conformity the House, and which would involve the with the premises, expressly petition the interests of Christians of every denominaHouse, that every such law may be re- tion; going, as it naturally would, to the pealed, and the rights of conscience may repeal of all the disabilities of the present thus be restored to all the subjects of this day, he should wait, therefore, the result United Kingdom; and the Petitioners of that discussion, which, he presumed, humbly beg leave to add, that this re- would be for a committee of the House to quest, as it appears to them, is grounded take this important question into consion the most evident considerations of jus- deration. Being now on his legs, howtice; and they trust that the compliance ever, he begged leave to state, that unless of the state would yet conciliate the af- the decision of the court of King's-bench fection of millions of their aggrieved fel-on a case now pending before them, should low subjects, and unite them for ever to the interests of the empire: under each of these aspects their request claims, and they hope will be found to deserve, the assent of the House, as they are statesmen anxious for the safety of their country, and as they are moralists determined to act impartially on the rules of justice; but, when the Petitioners consider farther, The Petitions were ordered to lay on the table. render the thing unnecessary, he should submit to the House a motion on a subject not altogether unconnected with religious toleration. It had hitherto been supposed, that it was required of magistrates to tender the oaths to persons wishing to qualify for preaching or teaching, who tendered themselves. This had hitherto been considered to be the law, but it was |
