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they may deem proper for the purpose of rescinding the same.

Lord Calthorpe presented a second Petition, precisely to the same effect from Birmingham.

The Duke of Norfolk took occasion to observe, that the Petition just presented had received the signatures of more than 14,000 individuals, and urged the propriety of their lordships paying the most serious attention to a subject of such vital importance, and respecting which the sense of such a large portion of their fellow subjects was so decidedly expressed.

Earl Fitzwilliam then adverted to the notice he had given of a motion respecting the Orders in Council, with reference to the numerous Petitions which crowded the table of the House, setting forth the distresses of the manufacturers in consequence of the operation of these Orders, and moved to discharge the order for summoning their lordships on that motion on Tuesday next, and to renew it for Thursday the 30th instant.

The Earl of Lauderdale observed, that the various applications to parliament upon this important subject, strongly expressed the opinions and the feelings of the great body of those most interested in and affected by the measures in question. What they alleged against those ruinous measures was strictly founded in fact, and this he would be the more enabled to prove, were the documents which he should move for on Friday ordered to be produced. The petitioners took a right view of the subject, and he agreed with them, as he was sure that no measures could more effectually aid the enemy than the means afforded by those Orders in Council. They would tend eventually to the crea tion of a marine for the enemy, and would, instead of diminishing, tend to increase the supplies for those armies with which he subjugated the continent. He conjured their lordships to attend to the subject, when it should, ere long, come under their consideration, as involving points not only vitally affecting the commercial and trading interests, but even the national existence of the country itself.

Earl Bathurst strongly contended that a very mistaken and erroneous sense of the nature and effect of the Orders in Council was entertained by those whose opinions were expressed in the language they had just heard read. He would put it to their lordships what would be the inevitable effect of a repeal of the Orders in Council?

It would, in fact, be to open the ports of France to importations from the Baltic, from the United States of America, and various other places; it would be to transfer the entire advantages of a traffic to the enemy, which might otherwise direct itself to this country.

The Earl of Lauderdale insisted that the petitioners in such a question were the preferable authority.

The Duke of Montrose deprecated all premature discussion of a subject not before the House. He contended that the opinions of noble lords on his side of the House were intitled to as much attention and respect as those so loudly urged by the noble earl. The line of argument and tone held by noble lords opposite, tended to deceive, instead of informing the manufacturers upon the subject. They repre sented that the effect of the British Orders in Council was to benefit the trade and the navigation of the enemy, and to divert the tide of commerce from the ports of this island. His conception of those measures was very different. He regarded them as making part of a wise and just system of retaliation against the unprincipled and aggressive conduct of France, providing that where the neutral had not the wisdom or spirit to defend its right, the enemy should not reap the advantage of commerce, nor that the valuable products of the West Indies should be carried into his ports. The number of speeches which were made, nor the clamour which was raised against these measures, did not alter the nature of those Orders, or tend in the least to shew their want of wisdom or justice.

RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.] Earl Grey, adverting to the numerous Petitions that lay on their lordships' table, against the East India monopoly, wished to know from the noble President of the Board of Controul, when the subject of the renewal of the charter was to be brought forward. The session was far advanced; the measure was one of the greatest importance; and it was necessary that time should be given for that ample deliberation, which the magnitude of the question called for.

The Earl of Buckinghamshire could not state exactly when the subject would be brought before parliament; but whether it could be brought forward this session or not, their lordships might be assured of this, that full time would be given for the

consideration of the question in all its bearings. He had no objection, however, to state, that it was the intention of government that the matter should originate in the other House; but there was no desire, on the part of the Prince Regent's ministers, to precipitate the measure, or prevent its being maturely considered in both Houses.

Earl Grey had expressed his wish to know when the subject would be brought before their lordships; whether it was probable that it would be submitted to them at a period when there was a fair chance of its being considered and discussed in a manner suited to its importance: but now the noble earl over the way appeared to be uncertain whether it would come before them at all that session; and stated, that, at all events, it was intended that the measure should not ori.

ginate there. He saw no reason against it; but at any rate it ought to be laid before them at a period when it might receive the fullest deliberation. Could this be expected? Considering the time that a Bill of this nature must take in passing through the other House, it was morally impossible that it should that session come before their lordships at a time when there was usually the fullest attendance. He hoped their lordships would interfere, and not suffer their dignity and consequence in the state to be thus trifled with.

The Earl of Buckinghamshire had given no decided opinion that the subject ought not to originate in their lordships' House. He had only stated that under the circumstances, it appeared most advisable to the government that the matter should originate in the other House.

Lord Grenville declared, that from what he had seen of the conduct of the present ministers, it was his firm belief that they acted upon a fixed intention to annihilate the consequence of that House. (Some cries of No, no.) He repeated that such was his firm belief-a belief founded upon their uniform plan of delaying to bring the most important political measures before their lordships, till it was notoriously impossible to give them their due consideration in that House. The declaration of his noble friend at the head of the East India Department, was in exact conformity to this system. After the public attention had been so long fixed upon this subject, when their table was loaded with Petitions respecting it, his noble friend had declared, that the matter was not to be

brought forward here till it had passed the other House. Such a declaration he thought a most extraordinary one; for even if the measure were to originate in the other House, still there were means, before it had gone through all its forms, to bring the subject before their lordships; and this was the plan which those who loved the constitution of their country, and thought their lordships' House an integral part of it, would, in all probability, have followed but ministers, it appeared, thought that their lordships had only to sit, with their hands folded, till the most important measures were brought before them, at a time when they could not give them due consideration; and then, if some of their lordships solicited farther time, they would be told, that the public interest, and not their opinions, were to be attended Was this a way to treat that House? For five years they had been treating on the subject with their parliament in Leadenhall-street; and yet it was not to be brought before their lordships, till it was so late, that they could not conveniently, he might say, could not possibly, give it the consideration which its magnitude required. It was of the utmost importance to the constitution of the country, that their lordships should not suffer their House to be treated with this gross indignity.

to.

The Earl of Liverpool would never hear the present ministers charged with treating their lordships' House with indignity, without rising to repel the accusation. He maintained that in the conduct of the public business, every attention had been paid to the consequence of that House. What was there in the explanation of his noble friend to call for this accusation? Had not his noble friend declared, that ample time would be given for the consideration of this important subject? And with regard to the particular period at which this business might come before them, he had to observe, that no season was improper for deliberation upon a great public measure. If, indeed, there had been any faulty delay on the part of ministers, under all the circumstances of the case, that might be a ground for a distinct charge against them: but any season of the year was a fit one for the discussion of a great political question. It would be for their lordships to decide, when the question came before them, whether they should proceed upon it or adjourn the discussion to a future period;

and it ought to be remembered, that the Company's Charter wanted two years of its expiration. Where was the indignity to their lordships, in saying that it was the intention of ministers that the measure should originate in the other House? That might be purely a matter of convenience; and no indignity was intended to either House of Parliament. It ought to be remembered, also, that when the subject of the Charter, now about to expire, was under consideration, the noble lord who spoke last was in administration; and yet the measure had then originated in the other House, and had come before their lordships at a late period of the session. The magnitude of the subject was deeply felt by the Prince Regent's servants; and they had thought it their duty to consider fully the various interests which it involved, before they laid the matter before parliament. They had thought it incumbent on them to lay the measure before parliament in as perfect a shape as possible; and it was, and had always been, their intention that parliament should have ample time to give it all the consideration which its importance deserved.

Marquis Wellesley denied, in the most pointed terms, that there was any intention on the part of ministers, while he was connected with them, to offer any indignity to their lordships' House, or to treat its authority lightly; but at the same time he deeply regretted, that a question of this importance; for it was one of the most important questions, not only with a view to trade; but in a constitutional, military, and political point of view, that ever came under their lordships' reviewit involved all that was dearest and most vital to the constitution of this country, to its liberties, and to its government,-it involved the consideration of all they owed to that vast empire which they had so long administered, and which, as he should be able to prove when the matter came regularly under discussion, they had, all things considered, administered so well; he deeply regretted, he repeated, that a question of this vast importance had not, before this late period of the session, been brought regularly under the deliberation of both Houses, in the shape of Resolutions, by which the opinion of parliament might be taken on the prominent features and principles of the system, before the more formal measure was submitted for deliberation. Whether the measure ought to originate in that or the other House,-

whether that House had been, at any time, improperly passed by, whether the error was on the one side of the House or the other, was not now the question for their lordships to decide. The real question which at this moment best deserved their attention was, whether they ought not to have an opportunity of deciding upon the prominent principles of the intended India system, as a preliminary to the discussion of the more detailed plan. He was aware, that these observations were irregular ; but he would state one principle now. He believed, that the general basis of the present system was the right one; but at the same time, many vital improvements might be erected on that basis, even with a view to give complete effect to the principle: but it was not right in the government to refrain from taking the sense of both Houses as the preliminary step. Such, he was satisfied, would be the opinion of every person who was at all aware of the importance of the subject. He regretted that this course had not been adopted, and heard the declaration of the noble lord at the head of the India department with astonishment. For how could they possibly think of proceeding with a measure of this magnitude without,in the first instance, applying to parliament for a general concurrence in its prominent features?

Petitions resPECTING THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.] The Duke of Gloucester.-My lords, I hold in my hand a Petition, which as Chancellor of the University of Cambridge, I feel it incumbent on me to present to your lordships; but having uniformly absented myself whenever the Roman Catholic question has been under discussion, and abstained from giv ing any opinion on that subject, I request it may be understood, that though my name appears at the head of this Petition, in consequence of the high office I have the honour of filling in the University, from which I have but a few hours since received this Petition, (an office I feel the greatest pride in possessing) yet I do not mean to pledge myself to any opinion either for or against the important question, upon which your lordships are this night going to deliberate. Nothing would have induced me to come down on the present occasion, but for the very high respect I entertain for that very learned body whose Petition I hold in my hand; and 1 propose leaving the House as soon as I have heard it read.

The Petition being read and ordered to lie on the table,

The Earl of Hardwicke said; My lords, from the relation I have the honour to bear to the University of Cambridge, it is impossible that I should not feel some anxiety to trouble your lordships with a few words in consequence of the Petition which has been just read. None can be more ready than I am to admit the weight that is due to every thing that proceeds from that learned body; at the same time, my lords, with all the respect that I bear to the University collectively, and with all the respect and regard that I feel for many of the individuals, who probably are parties to this Petition, I trust I may be permitted to remark, that the weight which is given to any act, from whatever quarter it proceeds, must necessarily bear some proportion to the degree of deliberation and discussion which it has undergone. Now, my lords, I am sorry to be under the necessity of observing that this Petition, though relating to a question of great importance to the state, is not the result of that consideration to which the subject is certainly intitled. On the contrary, it is a fact which cannot be denied, that the intention of proposing any Petition at all, was not known in the University on the evening before the day (viz. yesterday) on which it was proposed in the senate; and if a right reverend prelate were now in his place, he would confirm what I now state to your lordships, that though presiding over the largest college in the University, he was not apprised till the evening of the day before yesterday, that any such measure was in contemplation. And, yet, my lords, with all this secrecy, the majority in favour of the Petition was very inconsiderable. In the Black-hood House, which consists of masters of arts, above five years standing, the members were, for the Petition 24, against it 19; and in the White-hood House, for a Petition 34, against it 20. It must here be observed, that the circumstances of the doctors having the privilege of voting in the White-hood House, if they think proper to do so, accounts for the majority being greater than in the Black-hood House. Under these circumstances, my lords, I certainly cannot consider this Petition as conveying the sense of the University at large; but at all events, it will receive its due weight from your lordships; and I am bound to say, that many of the individuals from whom it proceeds,

are of the most respectable description for their abilities and learning, and would not have brought before your lordships any Petition that was not expressive of their genuine and sincere opinions upon this or any other subject. I am, therefore, sincerely concerned to find myself obliged to differ from them so entirely upon this occasion; but I cannot, in deference to any individuals, or any body, however respectable, abandon opinions which are the result of much consideration and long experience; opinions so far as relates to the penal laws, entertained from a very early period of life, confirmed by observation and reflection since, and which lead me to the more decided conviction of the wisdom and policy of supporting the motion that will be the subject of our deliberation tonight.

The Marquis of Lansdowne.-My lords, as far as my information goes, the statement of my noble friend, notwithstanding the length of time in which the subject had occupied the public attention, though nearly two months notice have been given in both Houses of the intention to press this question upon the consideration of parlia ment this session; yet it was not till Saturday last that it was surmised in the University that such a Petition as this was in contemplation; and it was not till Sunday, a day usually devoted to other concerns, that the promoters of the Petition formally promulgated their purposes. The subject was discussed on Monday morning, before those who were necessarily absent on various duties, could attend in their places, to give their concurrence or intimate their dissent. I know that several persons, if they had had timely notice of the intention to submit this proposition to the University, would have attended to give their negative to it. (Hear, hear.) I have authority to state, that if the reverend and learned prelate, who held the highest situation in the University, next to the illustrious person whom it has the honour to have at its head, had not been accidentally absent when the Petition was proposed, he would have given it his opposition. Such are the circumstances under which this Petition has been carried; and I request your lordships to bear in mind the statement of my noble friend, that only fifty-eight persons out of the houses that voted, had supported the proposition, belonging to a body of seven or eight hundred.

The Duke of Norfolk.-I think that the

lodged from its strong holds, defeated and rebuked.

circumstances warrant an inference, that if the subject had been deliberately considered, the decision would have been different.

The Earl of Moira presented a Petition from the Roman Catholics of the county of Galway, same as the general Petition. The Marquis of Downshire presented a Petition of the same kind, from the Roman Catholics of the county of Down.

Earl Conyngham presented the Petition of the Catholics of the county of Clare.

Lord Erskine presented a Petition from a number of Christians to the same effect as several other Petitions already received, all in support of the concessions required by the Catholics. Ordered to lie on the table.

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE'S MOTION FOR A COMMITTEE ON THE CIVIL DISABILITIES OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.] The Earl of Donoughmore moved the order of the day, for a Committee to take into consideration the Claims of the Catholic body, for the removal of the disabilities under which they labour. The Order having been read,

There is, however, one preliminary objection-that of bringing this subject forward, at a time peculiarly unseasonable, against which I must guard myself at the outset. I must not be told, that I am now renewing a discussion, on which your lordships have decided twice during the present session. It is certainly true, that during that period, two questions have already engaged the attention of the House, in both of which the just claims of the Irish Catholics formed a strong and prominent feature. Indeed, I know not how I could select any question, of vital importance to that country, which must not embrace the necessity of conciliating them, so irresistibly must their present Condition force itself into view, as the master grievance, whenever the alarming state of Ireland, at such a crisis as the present, becomes the object of consideration. But in both cases, the claims of the Catholics made but a part of the subject, which thus engaged the attention of your lordships. In both, it was complicated with other considerations of a weighty nature; with the administration of justice in Ireland, and the conduct of the Irish government in the one case, and with the removal of the ministers in the other. On the first occasion, it was the operation of the Convention Act, which was the imme

the general misconduct and impolicy of his majesty's ministers, on all the leading and most important measures of their administration.

The Earl of Donoughmore rose and said: My lords; The Petitions on the part of my Catholic countrymen, which your lordships have heard read, are sufficiently explicit in stating the objects of the petitioners, four millions of your fellow-sub-diate subject of complaint. In the other jects, the Irish nation. What are the grievances of which they complain? That they are excluded from the enjoyment of those constitutional privileges, which they claim as the birth-right, and the inheritance of every member of the British Union. What is the remedy for which they make their firm, but respectful appeal to the justice of this House?The removal of unjust restrictions-the revival of suspended right.

This is not a new question, brought forward for discussion, now, for the first time. Your lordships have already heard the weighty arguments, by which the affirmative side of it stands supported, repeatedly put, with all the appropriate force, which talent and zeal will always give to a good cause, to every objection, which the apprehensions of his own mind have ever suggested to the well intentioned alarmist, the strong powers of truth and reason applied, again and again, with irresistible effect; and bigotry itself dis

On the motion of the noble earl (Fitzwilliam) at the commencement of the session, many of your lordships might not have been prepared to have voted a censure on the Irish government, however anxiously they might have wished, that the Catholic grievances had not been interrupted, in their progress to parliament and to the throne. On the motion of the noble baron, (lord Boringdon) your lordships might have been still less ready, to go the whole length of passing sentence of execution, against the whole administration. Some noble lords might have been desirous to have given a long day, in order to have afforded to a noble viscount, (Sidmouth) and a noble earl (earl of Buckinghamshire) who have lately joined the administration, an opportunity of taking their part on the solemn occasion. Others,

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