themselves; but I protest, sir, I know not what I do not try what security can be contrived by belp of Disters partitio and in was in directh make t Sir Fr. Winnington. Sir; the many discourses you have heard this day, touching the strength of the Popish Interest at home, and how combined with foreign power, doth not Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this so much startle me, as to see, that all the Committee, that as long as the Papists have strength, upon which the Protestant Party any hopes of the duke of York's succeeding must depend for security, is put into the hands the king in the kingdom of England and Ire- of persons who are for the duke's interest, land, and dominions thereunto belonging, the which we have reason to understand to be the king's person, the Protestant Religion, and the same with Popery; not a person being emLives, Liberties, and Properties of all his ma-ployed in any place of command or trust, that jesty's Protestant subjects, are in apparent danger of being destroyed." Sir Gilbert Gerrard. Sir, I am of opinion the Popish Plot goeth on as much as ever, and the Papists are so proud of it, that they cannot forbear bragging of their hopes to see better days speedily. I think, sir, seeing we are not like for one while to have the Exclusion Bill, we shall appear neglectful of our duty, if we I think ever declared against that interest. If I be the popish party. And if by chance any is put in, not fettered either by opinion or interest to that party, upon the first appearance he is presently discharged, as if he were a traitor to his country. And now, after a long interval of parliaments, and more and more discoveries of the reality and danger of the Popish Plot, what remedies are we like to obtain this session? I am afraid very few or none; for I must confess, I am still of opinion, there can be none without the Exclusion-Bill, which the lords have thrown out without so much as a conference; and therefore I ain afraid that what the witnesses have said they were told by several Jesuits, is true; That Popery was so clenched and riveted, that it did not lie in the power of God, nor man, to prevent the settling of it in this nation. And if we consider what an interest that party hath now at present, and how things are prepared to afford them a greater assistance hereafter; how a popish king, as well as our divisions and animosities, will contribute to it, though I hope, God will make them liars; yet I conclude, they have a great deal of reason to be very confident. And I see not how we can help ourselves, seeing there are so many ministers of state about the king, who are as a partition-wall between him and his people. I find in Coke's Reports, that when the nation was in apparent danger, the people might go directly to the king with their Grievances, and make their Complaints and Petitions known. I think we may do well to consult this text, and see if we can find out any better way than what we have tried already, to convey our humble Supplications to his royal person. In the mean time, I think you had not best to go off from the Bill of Association. Mr. Leveson Gower. Sir, I would not discourage you from going on with these Bills; but I am afraid they will fall far short of the power and strength that will be necessary to root out an Interest that hath been above 100 years riveting itself by all arts and ways imaginable, and hath now fixt itself so near the throne. I must confess, I am afraid we are at labour in vain, and that this interest hath so clenched itself, (as the Jesuits term it) that it will break not only this parliament, but many more, if not all parliaments, and the Protestant Religion too. It is too weighty to be removed, or perverted, by such little Bills as these: no, sir, you will find, that nothing less than a firm union amongst all the Protestants in this nation can be sufficient to give any check to this interest. As long as there are amongst us so many persons, as know not rightly how to apply the dangers of the Church and State, nor the miseries of 1611, but will be led by Popish projectors, I am afraid such Bills as these will not do our business: because they will not destroy that footing which they have at court, nor strengthen the Protestant Interest, which must have its original from union. It is strange that none but those who are for the duke's interest should be the VOL. IV. only persons thought fit to be in places of trust! It is so strange a way to preserve the Protestant Church and Religion, that it raiseth with me a doubt, Whether any such thing he designed. Such persons may be proper to manage affairs in favour of the Popish interest; but it is to be admired, that they, and they only, should be thought fit to be intrusted with the Protestant interest. I think it as hard for them to do it, as to serve two masters. It is not usual in other countries, to retain their enemies in the government, nor such as are friends to their encinies; and it is strange that we, of all other nations, should fall into this piece of policy. But, sir, for these reasons you may conclude, that, unless what laws you make be strong and well-penned, they will signify nothing against so powerful a party as you have to do with. Sir Wm. Jones. Sir; seeing there is á négative passed upon the Bill we had contrived to secure us from these great dangers, I think we may do well to try if we can get any thing else. But I am persuaded if this AssociationBill be made as it should be, that we shall have no better success with it than we had with the Exclusion-Bill: for I am afraid, that though we are permitted to brandish our weapons, yet that we shall not be allowed to wound Popery; but rather do believe, that they who advised the throwing out of that Bill, will also do the same by this, or dissolve the house before it come to perfection: for this Bill must be much stronger than that in queen Eliz.'s days; that was for an Association only after her death, but I cannot tell if such a bill will secure us now, the circumstances we are under being very different. In queen Eliz.'s days, the privy counsellors were all for the queen's interest, and none for the successor's; now, most of the privy-counsellors are for the successor's, and few for the king's. Then the ministers unanimously agreed to keep out Popery, now we have too much reason to fear, there are many that are for bringing it in. In those days they all agreed to keep the Popish Successor in Scotland, now the major part agreed to keep the Successor here; all which must be considered in drawing up of the Bill. An Association Bill voted.] Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the house be inoved, that a Bill be brought in for an Association of all his majesty's Protestant subjects, for the safety of his majesty's person, the defence of the Protestant Religion, and the preservation of his majesty's Protestant subjects, against all invasions and oppositions: and for preventing the duke of York, or any other Papist, from succeeding to the crown." Proceedings on Mr. Seymour's Impeachment.] Dec. 17. The commons ordered, "That Mr. Seymour be taken into the custody of the serjeant at arms, for securing his forth-coming to answer the Impeachment of this house against him, until he shall have given security to this house, to answer to the said Impeachment; and that the serjeant at arms be empowered 4 L to receive security for the forth-coming of the said Mr. Seymour." Votes to secure the Kingdom against Popery, &c.] The same day, the house resolved into a committee, farther to consider of ways and means to secure the kingdom against Popery and arbitrary Government; and after several debates, how ineffectual all laws would prove, without good Judges, Justices, and others in commission, that will execute them; and how frequent parliaments would conduce to have laws put duly in execution; 1. Resolved; "That it is the opinion of this house, that the house be moved, that a Bill be brought in, for the more effectual securing of the Meetings and Sittings of frequent Parliaments. 2. That this house do agree with the committee, that a Bill be brought in that the Judges hereafter to be made and appointed, may hold their Places and Salaries quamdiu se bene gesserint: and also to prevent the arbitrary proceedings of Judges. 3. That this house do agree with the committee, that a Bill be brought in, against illegal Exaction of Money upon the people, to make it High-Treason." Debate on the King's Speech.] Dec. 18. His majesty's Speech, made to both houses on the 15th, was read. much blood spent therein, will, besides their principles and inclinations, lay on them great obligations, to make use of the opportunity to establish their religion again in this nation. So that I must confess, these reservations look to be like a perfect design to save the whole party, accompanied with a power and a pretence sufficient to enable them to accomplish their end. For to this the saving of the duke's right doth amount, and consequently the destruction of the Protestant Religion: which cannot be imagined to proceed from his majesty. In former times, the interest of no one man could ever bear up against the interest of the nation; now it seems, that the Religion, lives and liberties of all the people of this nation, nay, I may say, all the Protestants of the three nations, must be all lost, rather than one man be dispossest of his right; though by his act he hath made himself incapable to enjoy it. Certainly there must be more intended by this than the saving of one man; it must be the saving of a party: and therefore, sir, I am afraid we are but where we were two years ago: for it is plain to me, that there is a certain fatal scheme, which hath been exactly pursued these 20 years, in order to destroy the Protestant Interest, and hath had a strange secret operation in the management of all our affairs; and although now and then some accidents have happened, that have occasioned some alteration for a time, as by his majesty's Mr. John Hampden. Sir; the veneration that is due to all his majesty's Speeches doth require, that we should seriously debate them before we give any answer to them; but the circumstances we are under at this time chal-recalling the Toleration, some transactions of lenge a more than ordinary consultation: for, parliaments, the breaking out of the Plot, and by the tenor of the Speech, I conclude, that his majesty's Toleration of his Council in the success of this parliament depends upon 1679; yet I observe, that after a little while our Answer to it; and consequently, the safety there is no change in the main; all returns to the of the Protestant Religion, both at home and old scheme, as if there were a certain infallible abroad. And therefore I think myself very balance that did preponderate. We have had so unable to advise in this matter, and should much experience of his majesty's goodness and not have attempted it, but that you have en- inclinations, that we cannot but conclude that couraged me by your leave to speak first. So there is still some such thing, as a wheel within a that if I offer any thing amiss, those that come wheel; whether Jesuits, (for it is like them) or after will have opportunities to correct me. I who, I cannot tell, nor how the government is would begin with the latter end of the Speech influenced, that the protestants should not be first; because that part of it is most likely to able to obtain any thing for their security. beget a fair understanding between his maj. and But we may guess and justly fear, that it will this house. But I cannot but observe, what never be otherwise, as long as there is a Pogreat care is here again taken to preserve the pish Successor. The truth is, we have a hard Succession in the right line, as in all other his task to serve our king and country in such a majesty's Speeches ever since the Plot broke time as this is. We may expose ourselves to out. I think more could not be done, though the rage of a powerful party; but, I am afraid, it were in behalf of the king's son, and a Pro- get little to secure ourselves against their retestant too. That limitation, and his majes- venge. We are under the same inequality as ty's offer of securing the Protestant Religion, fair gamesters that meet with those that use (if by Succession in the right line be meant false dice; and are like to have the same ill the duke) upon many debates in this house is luck at last, unless his maj. should be pleased found irreconcilable; and therefore must be to consider, who stands up most for his governimputed to those that have advised his maj.ment, and who plays fairest; and accordingly, thereto. To preserve the right Succession in change his councils.-It is not to be doubted the duke, is to preserve something or nothing. but that, as well for the security of the nation The something must be no less than the crown, at home, as of Flanders against the power of in case of his majesty's death; and so conse-France, and the Protestant Religion abroad, quently the interest of the Popish party, who, we are under a necessity to make Alliances; after 100 years endeavours to have a prince of and that they cannot be made nor supported their own religion, the indefatigable industry without money. But did we not give above 2 of the Jesuits to obtain it, and the loss of so millions for the preservation of the Triple good Protestant bottom, as long as there is a Popish Successor, which cannot be prevented but by the Succession Bill: that there may be no il construction made of our desires, I would humbly move you to offer to supply the king with what Money he may need for the support of Tangier and Alliances, upon his granting of the Succession Bill only, that so his maj. may have no reason to be diffident of us; not doubting, but that if we can once lay a foundation for a good correspondence, that his maj. will take so much content in it, beyond what he doth now enjoy, that to preserve it he will afterwards grant us what more Bills may be farther necessary for the security of the Protestant Religion. And therefore Í am not for clogging this Address with any request for any thing more, than that one Bill. League? And were not the said 2 millions by the power of the French and Popish party employed to break it? Did we not a little while since give about a million and an half for an actual French war? And was there not presently a general peace made? Do, not all foreign nations complain, that, notwithstanding all our treaties, pretences, and declarations, we have been only true to France? And what reason have we now to imagine, that if we should give Money for Leagues, that it would be employed otherwise than formerly? Is not the same scheme of government pursued still? Is not the French ambassador, and the French woman too, as great at court as ever? And have not the duke's creatures the management of all affairs? And if the duke's interest, the French interest, and the Popish interest, be all one, can you imagine, that your Money Sir Wm. Jones. Sir, we have hitherto had shall be employed to make any Alliances, that so little success in our endeavours, that we shall be for the advantage of the Protestant may justly suspect, we are permitted to sit Religion? No, sir, though his maj. so intend it, here, rather to destroy ourselves than to save yet the wheel within a wheel, which hath our country. It is a matter of admiration to managed all other Alliances hitherto, will also me, that those who have so often advised his manage these, and have the disposal of our majesty, to put this, and the former parliaMoney too, and pervert it to our destruction. ments, upon finding out expedients for securAnd, until things settle here at home on a true ing the Protestant Religion, without altering Protestant bottom, it cannot be imagined, that the Succession, should all this while find out any foreign prince will depend on us, or make none themselves; but still continue advising alliances with us. And therefore as well for the king to put that upon us, which, after mathat, as because our Money may not probably ny debates, is found to be impossible. And be disposed of for any good end, it is in vain that the king should always have at his elbow to treat of either Alliances or money. For, persons ready to remember him constantly to until the interest be changed at court, that so make this limitation, which, in all appearance, there may be a better understanding between must tend to the final destruction of the Prothe king and his people, it cannot produce any testant Religion: and that there should be thing for our advantage.-I beg leave to add no body there to mind him of proposing some something about the latter part of the Speech, expedients to prevent it, only in general words, which doth a little comfort me, because I hope of which no use can be made. According to we may graft such an Answer thereupon, as the opinion of three successive parliaments, may beget a right understanding with his ma- the limitation in favour of the Popish interest jesty. I know this house is constituted of per- is plain, intelligible, and practicable. I hope sons different from that of the Long Parlia- his majesty, against the next occasion, will rement, because of the many Pensioners that quire them that have so advised him, to make were in it; and that we need not now be the expedients and other ways to secure the afraid to talk of Money. I believe we all Protestant Religion, as plain and practicable, know, that without giving Money this session, that so we may see if the security of the Prothe nation can never be happy, nor his ma- testant Religion be designed in good earnest jesty's government so formidable as it ought to by such advisers, which I cannot believe; bebe. And therefore I would humbly move you cause what they propose is, in my opinion, a to appoint a committee, to draw up an Address contradiction in itself. Without the Exclusion to assure his majesty, that when his maj. shall Bill, there can be no expedient but what will be pleased to grant us such laws, as are neces- leave us in that miserable condition, of having, sary for the security of our Religion, which first or last, a contest with our lawful king. may be particularized in the address, that we And there can be no such thing as setting up will be ready to give him what Money his oc- a power to oppose him, but by putting a kind casions may require, not only for the support of supreme authority in the parliament; with a of Tangier, and Alliances, but to enable him power to oppose, as well by making war as to have a good Fleet at sen, for the encourag-laws, which might prove the destruction of the ing of Seamen, and security of Trade, and pre- monarchial governinent. servation of his dominions; that so we may shew we are ready to express our duty, as well by our acts as words. Lord Russel. Sir, seeing it is so apparent that all our fears of Popery arise from, and center in the duke: and that is impossible the affairs of this nation should ever settle on a The said trust or power (without the Exclusion-Bill) being not to be reposed in the next heir, or any single lest he should die before he come to person, have the power in him, or utterly refuse to act, if he should live to have a right, by virtue of such a settlement, to administer the government. In such a case, there would be no je destrow lawful power lodged any where else, to oppose and your people, we know not) to annex a res Mr. Garroway. If you do not represent all your Grievances in this Address, as the condition of your giving Money, whatever you shall offer at afterwards will be looked upon as clamourous, and out of order. And therefore I would advise you, not to omit any one Grievance you expect any remedy in. And I am for enumerating all your Grievances, in the Address, which have been lately debated. And I do admire nobody takes notice of the Standing Army; which if not reduced to such a number as may be convenient for guards, and so limited, that they may not be increased, unless in case of a rebellion, or an invasion, all your laws may signify nothing. And I am not satisfied in the making such general offers of Money. For if you do, you will hear in time, that the Fleet needs one million; Alliances, as much more; and Tangier (though I think not worth keeping) little less. te your! Ang schi expectatio 2 and spon your er poste are more a Aur Reig delead it cease, and The most pauses, be ju Rash R deniable, Tence eise this nation he reig acknowled this i and all ca @spirtua arediction of all such ter reng Benis, W11 we might the Fi 3855750 11 Tork, wit stablish (abom too and such -We lar your grea case the kingdom the oppos ceed in the throne of these kingdoms, is utterly inconsistent with the safety of your majesty's person, the preservation of the Protestant Religion, and the prosperity, peace and welfare of your Protestant subjects. That your majesty's sacred Life is in continual danger, under the prospect of a Popish Successor, is evident, not only from the principles of those devoted to the Church of Rome, which allow, that an heretical prince (and such they term all Protestant princes) excommunicated and deposed by the Pope, may be destroyed and murdered; but also from the testimonies given in the prosecution of the horrid Popish Plot, against divers traitors, attainted for designing to put those accursed principles into practice against your majesty.-From the expectation of this Succession, has the number of Papists in your majesty's dominions so much encreased within these few years, and so many been prevailed with to desert the true Protestant Religion, that they might be prepared for the favours of a Popish prince, as soon as he should come to the possession of the crown; and while the same expectation lasts, many more will be in the same danger of being perverted. This it is that has hardened the Papists of this kingdom, animated and confederated by their priests and Jesuits, to make a common purse, provide arms, make application to foreign princes, and solicit their aid, for imposing Popery upon us; "We your majesty's most dutiful and loyal and all this, even during your majesty's reign, subjects, the commons in this present parlia- and while your majesty's government and the ment assembled, having taken into our serious laws were our protection. It is your majesty's consideration your majesty's gracious Speech to glory and true interest, to be the head and both houses, on the 15th of this instant Dec. protector of all Protestants, as well abroad as do, with all the grateful sense of faithful sub- at home: but if these hopes remain, what Aljects and sincere Protestants, acknowledge|liances can be made for the advantage of the your majesty's great goodness to us, in renew- Protestant Religion and Interest, which shall ing the assurances you have been pleased to give confidence to your majesty's allies, to join give us, of your readiness to concur with us in so vigorously with your majesty, as the state of any means for the Security of the Protestant that interest in the world now requires, while Religion, and your gracious invitation of us, to they see this Protestant kingdom in so much make our desires known to your majesty. But danger of a Popish Successor? By whom, at with grief of heart we cannot but observe, that, the present, all their councils and actions may to these princely offers, your majesty has been be eluded, as hitherto they have been; and by advised (by what secret enemies to your maj. whom (if he should succeed) they are sure to Resolved, after further debate, "That a committee be appointed to prepare an humble Address to his majesty, upon the debate of the house, in answer to his majesty's Speech." The Commons' Address, in Answer to the King's Speech.] Dec. 30. Mr. Hampden reported the Address; which was read and agreed to, as follows: is pusses arther de |