while we may, pass our censures on such persons; for only God knows when we shall be permitted to sit here again.

Lord Russel. It appears plainly by the king's Message, what interest is prevalent at court, the duke's creatures; which is so great, that little good can be effected. Where Popery is so countenanced, we can do little good. Nothing can save the nation but union betwixt the king and the parliament. We have done our parts to procure it; the parliament will never be undisposed to do it; but unfortunately some get betwixt the king and us, to frustrate our good intentions, and to promote the duke's interest, though to the king's destruction. We know who have advised the king to these things, and that he should not pass the Bill of Exclusion. Therefore I am of Booth's opinion, to stick to the Bill, as our only security, and to brand those that have hindered it from passing.

Mr. Montagu. Sir, the truth is, we committed a great error in the beginning of this session; when we went about to look into the Popish Plot, we went into the Tower, whereas we should have gone to the court; for it is plain, that the duke's friends which are there, do still carry on the Plot against the protestant religion, as much as ever the lord Bellasis, Powis, or any of those lords in the Tower did. And we may reasonably conclude by the little success we have had against popery this session, that until we can remove that interest from about the king, we take pains to no purpose.

Debate on the King's Message.] Mr. H. Booth. Sir, his majesty is pleased to say in his Message, that he is confirmed in his opinion against the Exclusion-bill, by the judgment of the house of lords; and that he is sorry to see that this house hath such an opinion of it, as to conclude all other ways and means insufficient. He is also pleased to say, that we have no reason to doubt his concurrence, in any other means that shall tend to the preservation of the Protestant Religion, when presented to him in a parliamentary way, which I do not doubt but he will comply with, whenever he shall be pleased to follow the dictates of his own judgment. But so long as there are so many persons about him, who have publicly declared for the duke's interest, we have good reason to doubt, that we shall hardly obtain any thing for the security of the Protestant Religion. We well know how many in the house of lords came to their honours, and by whose interest; and it is not strange, that those that are as servants should obey their master; but it is strange, that those who have prevailed with the king to reject this Bill, if Protestants, should be so unconcerned in the welfare of the Protestant Religion, as not to offer what Expedients they have, to secure it any other way; especially seeing the last parliament, as well as this, found it a task too hard for them. But to reject the Bill which we propose, and to offer no other to serve instead thereof, though they have had two years time for consideration, is to me plain demonstration, that nothing must be had against popery. That these difficulties should be put upon us, and our dangers Sir H. Capel. Sir, I am ready to agree in thus prolonged in favour of the duke, after such those Votes that were moved: For it appears full evidence that the Plot centers all in him, plain to me, that we are not like to have any and that the original of our miseries is from laws against popery: for the truth is, the pophim, when the immediate safety of the king, ish interest is too strong for us. If there were and our lives and religion, is concerned on the any intent that we should have the protestant other hand, is a plain discovery of the great religion secured any other way, it is strange power of the Popish interest, and of the low that those who advise the king to oppose our ebb of the Protestants, and that it is impossi- way, should not at the same time prevail with ble that any thing can be granted us in favour him to propose his. I am afraid that this adof the Protestant Religion, as long as those vice proceeds from those that think the king or that are so much for the duke's interest, are kingdom are not in danger of popery, because about the king. And therefore seeing we are they are of opinion, that popery cannot hurt not like to do any thing by Bill, that those that the king nor kingdom; for otherwise they sent us here may see we have done what we might plainly see it is like to have a contest can, let us make such Votes as may be service- with us: and that it would be convenient it able to our country, viz. 1. That neither the should be prevented, and be induced thereby king's Person nor Protestant Religion, can be to offer some expedient, if there be any. And secured any way without the Exclusion-Bill. as we may conclude ourselves an unhappy peo2. That we can give no Money, without en-ple upon these accounts, so also in that the dangering the king's Person and Protestant Re-house of lords, after they had spent so much ligion, until we have that Bill. And, 3. That seeing Supplies for all public Money ought to come from this house, there being no other way to supply the king with the love of his people, as well as with Money, let us pass a Vote to prevent Anticipations on the Revenue and other Supplies. And because I believe things are come to a point, and that there are those that have advised the Dissolution of this parliament, and the nation can never be happy as long as we have such counsellors, let us,

time about Expedients, and found them insufficient, should afterwards reject this Bill, without any farther care how to preserve the protestant religion; at least, not by sending any thing to this house, though we have heard from them of Mr. Seymour's Articles, and some trivial matters. And also in that some worthy members, who have the honour to serve in great places about his majesty, and have opposed this Bill, seeing this house in this great dilemma, should not offer to do the nation and

this parliament, which I tremble to think of, because it will be attended with a great ruin to our affairs both abroad and at home.

ficulties arising from the Bill, and would rather have you go into a committee, and treat of Expedients. But I think it below the grain-vity of the house to be put out of their method, unless some Expedients were proposed. But notwithstanding all the provocations that have been given, we cannot hear of any expedients, only one, which hardly deserves any farther consideration in a committee; because crown

rivals, but will be uneasy till they be rid of them. And I am afraid all other expedients will be liable to as strong objections; and that therefore it is that they are not proposed, though they have been so often discoursed of. If any person would offer any, that had any appearance of giving satisfaction, I should be ready to give my voice for going into a com

Sir R. Markham. Sir, being the house is clinable to hear of Expedients, I will crave leave to offer you one. In case the duke should outlive the king, I think, if by an act of parliament, the prince of Orange were appointed to administer the government jointly with him, with such powers and limitations as mighted heads or lovers, do not willingly allow of be thought convenient upon a serious debate, it might give great satisfaction, and probably secure the Protestant religion. [Laughed at.] Mr. Hampden. You seem, by the debate, to incline to think that no other way can secure us, but the Bill, and I am still of opinion, I could wish I could hear Expedients; but none were offered this parliament; what were offered was the last parliament. When we gomittee to debate them. But I know not why to fight, we are offered a bean-straw instead the house should lose that time, without some of a sword to fight with. Nothing was of expedient be first offered; and if there could fered the last parliament like an Expedient. be any expedients found out, which were You found all the laws in being, made by the likely, really and effectually to prejudice the wisdom of your ancestors for your safety, frus- duke's interest, why should not the same trated by the duke: this is no new thing since argument arise against them, as against the 1670; Have not all things been so? 2,500,000l. Exclusion Bill? Why would not any such bill was given to make a brave war with the be also against natural justice, the oath of alDutch; the money was got, and the peace legiance, be a severe condemnation, and not made, but the Dutch would not. But it had good in law, but liable to occasion a civil war? another effect; it helped to ruin a Protestant For I am not apt to think this great contest is neighbour. And so many more sums. Have all about an empty name; and if not, then the you not had great fruit of all this? Is not same arguments will hold against any other France brought very low? All laws are put Bill, that will be sufficient to keep him from in execution except those against popery, when the government, if some such bill or bills could it comes to the highest. What has been done be contrived, as against the Bill of Exclusion: in the interval of parliament? A few appren- but the truth is, there can be no other bill that tices, for pulling down bawdy-houses, were can serve us in this case, because all other hanged for treason. And this in the reign bills will leave us in that miserable condition of a Protestant prince! What must we ex- of opposing our lawful king, and all opposition pect under a Popish prince? Will your laws in such a case, would be liable to be construed be better preserved? Do you think to live in a rebellion. All other bills in this case would England and be protestants? It is so absurd be no more for the security of our religion, a thing, no man can imagine it. But I do not than a great many leases, releases, and other know whether parliamentarily the king can writings, are in many cases of estates, without take notice of the lords rejecting our Bill of fines and recoveries. However, I am against excluding the duke. The proviso in the Long the vote that was proposed, That the duke's Parliament, to exempt the duke from the oaths being a Papist hath rendered him uncapable and test, was so little rectified here (I thought of the crown: for that were to take on us a it would have passed without contradiction) legislative power; but let your question be, that it was carried but by two voices. And That it is the opinion of this house, that the now the Plot has been these two years disco- king's person, and Protestant religion, cannot vered, and we have been handling it, and be secure without that Bill: that so the promaking sport with it; but I believe we have ceedings of the house may be justified, in dehad, and have a Plot, and we are in moremanding that Bill hereafter, though we should danger than ever. Secure the Protestant re- in the mean time go on with any other bills. ligion, else all things besides will be ineffectual. į Mr. D. Finch. Sir, The question is at preI will say nothing more to the ministers; but sent, whether, seeing we cannot have this Bill, if we admit any remedy, without the Bill of we shall not aim at something else, that so, if Exclusion, we expose the kingdom and the possible, we may prevent the breaking up of Protestant religion to ruin. this parliament, without any effect, as to the great things they were summoned for, on which I cannot reflect without being much concerned; and I am afraid that it will be the coasequence of persisting for this bill. I cannot be persuaded, notwithstanding all that bath been said, but that there are other Bills that may attain our end, or at least do us some good.

Sir Wm. Jones. Sir, you have had several propositions made you, and the way to come to some speedy resolution, is not to debate too many together, but to keep close to that to which most have spoken; which, if I be not inistaken, is that which relates to the duke's Bill, which some have opposed, because of the dif

And we have no certain demonstration that | And the same argument, which queen Mary this bill, if we should obtain it, will infallibly used, will supply the defect of all laws, that the do what is desired. The acts made in Eliz.'s execution of all ecclesiastical laws may be days did not suppress that party totally: suspended by force, but could never be rethough the queen of Scots was cut off, yet pealed by the power of parliaments; and therethat interest continued, and even to this day fore commanded, that notwithstanding all laws remains, and so it may probably though we to the contrary, they should be executed as in should get this bill; and therefore why should the beginning of her father's reign. The great we stand so much in our own light, as not to endeavours that are used to ridicule the Plot, take what we can get? The Bill of Banish- arraign parliaments, and divide the Protesment may be of great use, and some bills to tant Interest, is a full confirmation to me, limit the power of such a prince, by putting that the Plot goeth on as much as ever. the power in parliaments and privy counsel- And how can it be otherwise, unless we can lors; why should we lose all by being so eager get the king of our side, that so he may be for that we are never like to get? And there- more for us than he is for the duke, without fore, I humbly conceive, we may do better to which it is impossible that the Protestant Ingo on with such other bills as may be thought|terest can stand long. In order to do someconvenient, and not struggle nor persist for the obtaining of this.

thing, I am ready to agree in the Votes that have been made.

Mr. G. V. (Probably Geo. Vernon.) Sir, it is clear to me, that all Expedients without this Bill cannot signify any thing for our defence against Popery. All our difficulty will be, to satisfy his majesty, that nothing else can save his people from the popish bondage. And if we could do that, I do not doubt but he will rather pass the Bill, than let three nations perish. The king doth now rely on the judg ment of the lords in the matter, yet haply will find upon an informatien, that he hath no good ground so to do. For I believe, if he would ask the lords why they were of that opinion, many of them would tell him, because he was of that opinion, and because they were awed by his presence. And it is my opinion, there wants nothing but a conference to have an agreement with the lords; in the mean time, that they may have occasion to consider better of it, let us by a Vote declare our resolution to stick to the Bill.

Col. Birch. Sir, I am not for adventuring my life upon rhetoric, which is all I can find there is in the discourses that are made for expedients. We all know that a little thing altered the government in France, and reduced the people of that kingdom to slavery: pray let us have a care that, for want of a little short act, we be not reduced to slavery and Popery too. Will not all the expedients that have been talked of, or can be imagined, leave us to contest with our lawful prince, and that assistance which he is well assured of, not only from the Papists here, but in Ireland, and from France and Scotland, I am afraid, enough to make it a measuring cast? And is the Protestant interest so low, that though our dangers be so great, instead of a sword to defend ourselves, we must be content with a sheath? I am not for cheating those that sent me here: I think it much more for the interest of the nation, that we should have no laws, than such as will but trepan us, by failing Sir Wm. Pulteney. Sir, by the debate which us like rotten crutches when we have occa- you have had about Expedients, it plainly ap-. sion to depend on them; I had rather lose pears that the Popish Interest is so well fixed, my life and my religion, because I were that we are not like to obtain any thing against not able to defend them, than be fooled it, that will do us any good. And it is not out of them by depending on such laws. I strange, that we should meet with great oppotake it for granted, that seeing the Exclusion- sition. For we may reasonably conclude, that Bill is thought too much for us, and such those, who had the power to instil those pringreat endeavours are used to preserve the ciples into the royal family, have not been negstrength and interest of that party, that we ligent to improve their interest, to secure those must either submit, or defend our religion by advantages they have long hoped for, and exa sharp contest; and therefore I hope we shall pected, from such a proselyte. And therefore not depend on laws that will tend to weaken those arguments which some worthy members us. I am confident, that if some ministers of have used, as to the improbability that ever a state did not stand as clouds between the king popish king should attempt to change our reand us, we should have redress. For how can ligion, as not consisting with his interest, are it consist with his goodness or coronation-oath, to me very preposterous, and a great demonthat for the interest of one man, the bodies stration of the influence of that party, in beand souls of the rest of his subjects should being able to broach such opinions, as are so in such danger of perishing, as they are in case useful to bring in that religion. For my part, of his death, if a popish king should succeed, and such popish counsellors, judges, justices, and bishops too, as we had in queen Mary's days? For it cannot be doubted, but that those that will be so loyal as to bring him in, will be so loyal, as it will be called, to obey him in all things which may be for his interest.

I am of a different judgment, and do believe, that a popish head on a Protestant body, would be such a monster in nature, as would neither be fit to preserve, or be preserved; and that therefore it would as naturally follow, as night follows day, that either the head will change the body, or the body the head. Have we not