into a bond to his corporation, of 1,000l. when be, his corporation would not chuse him again he takes an office, after being chosen Parlia- because he has no office, that another may ment-man, to be forfeited. Is not your mace serve them better: consider what may be the frequently, sent for the gentlemen of the long consequence. If qualifications change-and robe, into the Hall to attend your service? not only absence may make us ignorant of the You are pleased to make use of the privy affairs of the place we serve for, but our precounsellors to carry your messages to the king.sence here may do it to the office also. Edicts Formerly they had cushions to sit on, but were thrown out of doors, and must they be thrown out of doors too? This Bill is not consistent with the government, and he would lay it by. Mr. Vaughan. Though we are loyal, yet there have been parties in the parliaments, court, and country; and, in many things, have desired to advise with their country, before they give consent. Men have varied in their principles, and it is natural for men to do so. Where an office is inconsistent with the service of the country in the person that has it, it is reasonable that place should chuse another person, and where that place has no jealousy to think they shall not be well served, it is for the honour of the person to be chosen again. Moves for commitment of the bill. Serj. Maynard. If you make a law against such bribes as are given to come into a place to serve here, you would do full as much as by this bill. may meet with a stop in the parliament of Paris, in their verification, but seldom a defeat. This case, without this bill, may be so here. In 13 Edw. iii, a writ was prayed that none of that parliament should be viscount, (sheriff) or other minister, and so it went out. Here is no injury to the person by this bill; if he have no mind to the penalty of being chosen again, if he have an office, he may chuse what he will do. Whatsoever fate you give the bill, he does highly acquiesce in your judgment, and believes, if the bill does not pass, it may revive in future parliaments. Sir Henry Ford. We find, by experience, that offices may be hurtful in parliament-time, but we find that popularity has done much more hurt. Mr. Finch. Those, possibly, may speak to the sense, though not the acceptation of the house: the consequence of this bill is, that the service of the crown is incompatible with that here; when you consider a man so that he has. Col. Titus. Never had any place at court, betrayed one trust, to accept of another, he but what he has had these 25 years. Weigh- will come to his corporation, to be chosen ing all circumstances, he is against commit- again with an ill grace. We are not to pull ment of the bill: there are reasous against the feathers thus from the king. There was a time right of the subject: no reason why any man, when we had wages for our service in parliabut a fool or a knave, should be incapacitated ment. If no suspicion upon a man then, why to sit here. This is some invasion of the king's must an officer be suspected now that he gets prerogative. If the king thinks a man quali- by it? If thought necessary that he should have fied for an office, that is as much as to say an estate that is chosen a parliament-man, by, You will not trust him that the country increasing it he is the better qualified; having trusts.' You may hereby put the king upon a the better stake, and the more reason to supnecessity of putting unfit men into offices. Support his property. In that writ mentioned of pose an admiral at sea, either this man must not go to sea, or you turn him out for serving his country. These splendid and extraordinary things never yet did good. After the Long Parliament had passed the Self-deuying Ordinance, they never did deny themselves any thing. Edw. iii. there is a clause, that no lawyer should be chosen a parliament man.' The character of that parliament was, 'Indoctum Parliamentum.' And lord Coke observes, 'that not one good law was made in that parliament.' And if we should now say no lawyer, nor officer, should be a parliament-man, Sir Wm. Coventry differs from sir Thomas it is in effect to say, no person that understands Meres in his motion for adjourning the debate. the business of the nation shall be. For busiThe hand that did it (himself) will stand, withness of the country, gentlemen may have expeall submission, to the judgment of the house in its determination, with the same heart he brought it in with. The Bill does not provide that great officers shall not serve the king. Those that have offices may be the safer in them, and those that have no places shall not get them from them that have. The old way was, men were chosen into parliament, after they had been privy counsellors, and hopes so still, to be the better able to serve the country, and place they are chosen for. You are told it is hard for an admiral;' and that the Bill is not large enough for the militia officers,' which may be answered: and all the others are no objections for throwing out the bill.jected, 145 to 113. We have served here a great while, and, it may rience, but for affairs of state they must be informed from officers of state-Self-denial, is not so plausible an argument for this bill. If the king knows not able men here, where shall he send, hue and cry, after them in the country? The consequence will be, you must have all officers of State out of the Lords house. Sir Wm. Coventry sees that the sense of the house is against the Bill; and whether rejected' or not ingrossed' be the question, is indifferent; but the country would think better of it, if the question were not ingrossed' than rejected.'-The Bill on a division was re May 5. Resolved, "That an Address be presented to his majesty that he would be pleased to issue forth his Proclamation for the speedy Recalling those his subjects that are now in the service of the French king, and for the preventing any more from going over into that service." Resolved, "That a farther Address be presented to his majesty concerning the duke of Lauderdale:" (the question for adjourning being carried in the negative,) 119 to 99. "C. R. His majesty having received an Address from the house of commons, concerning the Recalling such of his subjects as are soldiers in the French king's service, hath thought fit to return this Answer: That such troops of his subjects as were in the most Christian king's service, before the last treaty made with the States General of the United Provinces, and were not, by that, to be recalled, as they are at present become inconsiderable in their numbers, so his majesty con derogation to his honour and dignity, and prejudice to the peace he now enjoyeth, and hath publicly professed to maintain with all his neighbours. But as to the prohibiting the going over of any more, his maj. will renew his Proclamation, and use all other effectual means both to forbid and hinder it." The King's Answer to the Address against the Duke of Lauderdale.] May 7. Mr. Se-ceiveth that they cannot be recalled without cretary Williamson* acquainted the house, That, having received their commands, to know his majesty's pleasure when he would be attended with a further Address concerning the duke of Lauderdale; that his maj. had been acquainted with it: but before that he received the order of the house to know his majesty's pleasure, his majesty had given direction for an Answer to the first Address, which he delivered in writing, and the same was read as follows: "C. R. His maj. has considered of the Address against the duke of Lauderdale, and the Reasons accompanying it. As to the acts of parliament, mentioned to have been passed in Scotland, his maj. observes, that the first of those acts was in the year 1663; which was long before the duke of Lauderdale was his majesty's commissioner in that kingdom: the Latter was in pursuance of the former. As to the words, by the time of Mr. Penistone Whaleye's case, his maj. perceives, that if they had been spoken, they must have been spoken before the last act of General Pardon: and his maj. being sensible how great a satisfaction and security the inviolable preservation of the former act of indemnity and oblivion has been to all his subjects, cannot but apprehend the dangerous consequences of inquiring into any thing that has been pardoned by an act of General Pardon, lest the example of that might give men cause to fear their security under the first Act of Oblivion." The King's Answer to the Address for recalling the English Forces.] May 8. Mr. Secretary Coventry delivered the King's Answer to the Address about recalling the English Forces out of France; which was as follows: : "In a letter from sir Win. Temple to his father, dated March 27, 1674, notice is taken of a bargain, which had been made between lord Arlington and sir Joseph Williamson, for the Secretary's place the latter was to give 6000l. for it, and the former was to resign it, as soon as lord St. Albans should be willing to part with the Chamberlain's Staff, for which lord Arlington had agreed to pay him 10,000l. On the 1st of Sept. this bargain was executed; and on the 11th, the public was informed by the Gazette (No. 420.) that those two removes were made in recompence of the long and faithful services of sir Joseph Williamson, as a clerk of the council; and of lord Arlington, as secretary of state." Ralph. | The farther consideration of his majesty's Answer was adjourned to the 10th. Debate on the King's Answer.] May 10. The house proceeded to take the above Answer into consideration. Sir Tho. Littleton. Here is an Answer from the king: desires that what is said upon it may not be thought to reflect upon the king, but on the authors of this Answer. He thinks it a very ill one; so highly prejudicial to the people, and destructive to the king! Would clear the matter of fact: the Auswer is, Such of his subjects in the most Christian king's service.' It is no unusual thing to call him 'the French king' in parliament; but he rests not upon that. Would be informed, whether by the late peace we made with Holland, the king is left free, and at full liberty, to keep these men actually in that king's service. How contrary would it be to his honour, if against no treaty, nor article (fettered) to recal them? Under that Proclamation mentioned, all this mischief is grown. The number of English forces there is now great; 8000 inen at least. The duke of Monmouth's regiment, and the Irish, go a great way in the number, besides the Scotch. Great numbers going into France is no breach of the treaty; but into Holland, is a breach. Would have that cleared. If we thank the king for this Message, we do it for sending men over into France. Mr. Scc. Coventry. That treaty does not command the forces to stay; but it is enough to tell you, that by that treaty the king is not obliged to recal those troops. It is no error' to call the k. of France the most Christian King,' as all the world besides call him. He tells you, on his reputation, by all he knows, there are not above 2000 of these forces in all. The king, besides, tells you of his Proclamation, and will use all other effectual means to prevent more going over. Is this such an abuse to the nation, and such a horrid thing? This is an advice to the king, in a thing he is entrusted with. This is not to be murmured at, but thanked for, to give you such an Answer, against his prerogative. Do you believe that the king, in making peace with Holland, did house: would not quarrel with any of our neighbours, but especially not with the great prince on the other side the water; but better now than at another time: while the people are under dissatisfactions, he knows no other way to satisfy them but in this house, and no way here, but in a Grand Committee. Mr. Sec. Coventry. A peace there was ad write no respectful letter to the king of France? And just at that hour of the king's mediation of peace, and ambassadors for it, to do such a partial act as to recal these men! Shall he be considerable neither on one side, nor the other, nor in mediatorship? Suppose the king was resolved to do it; it is not proper now. Cannot he keep a word, or a promise? What, if the king make a promise, and the h. of com-vised in this house, but not this peace: the mons break it, of what value will it be for the terms the king made himself, and he would not future? If you desire a farther explanation of have Birch tell you what the articles are, or this Answer, you may. But he thinks it a should be. great condescension in the king, as it is already. Mr. Garroway observes many things to be debated, peace and war. The thing is lodged and he will not break into it, nor meddle with it. We are not ready yet for a conclusion of our opinions to this Answer. If we open the matter of fact, see how we contribute to France's greatness. The king's honour, crown, and dignity are concerned in it. If the Low Countries and Flanders should be conquered, knows not what our condition will be. We know of no obligation to the numbers of men in France, and so can say nothing to the reeal of them. Moves to have the king's Answer debated in a Grand Committee. Sir Tho. Littleton seconds the motion, to come the better to the right understanding of the matter. Coventry has yielded the matter, that no treaty does impose the staying of these forces on the king. If any thing falls from bim, out of zeal to his country, desires pardon; but if we let those things go, we give the greatest blow both to our country and the confederates imaginable. Mr. Sec. Coventry. What he said was, 'the Treaty of Holland obliged it not.' Sir Tho. Clarges conceives, that where the Ling is dishonoured, and there is a contempt of his Proclamation, and a violation of his honour, we are concerned. The Message tells you, that the king has sent out his Proclamation to forbid all;' but, by letters from the ports, we are informed that recruits go frequently over into France, 3 James, ch. 31. No officer can go into any foreign service without taking the oaths of allegiance.' At Dover that has not been done; they go over as if they were to be instructed in the Popish religion, to our destruction; and by that law inentioned, bonds are to be entered into, and oaths (and all returned into the Exchequer) to practise nothing against that oath.' This going over is to the dishonour of the king, and danger of religion. : Sir Ch. Wheeler observes, that great things are brought into this house, and still prove but matter of enquiry. For the term of the French king' spoken of, when we have wars we say so of him, and what have we got by it? In all foreign affairs they come up to the title of the British king' with us. Of these men in the French service, he looks upon the Scotch guards as a thing particular to their nation, who have been in France sixty years at least in that capacity; the rest are the duke of Monmouth's regiment, and sir George Hamilton's; col. Churchill's regiment being reformed into the duke of Monmouth's (sometimes we are forced to be quit of the Irish, and now we must recal them.) He cannot inform himself, any way, of above 1000 horse : when you have inade all these means to prevent their going over, idle fellows will go." [He was taken down to Order.] The Speaker. It is disorderly to take a man down, before you know what he will say, Sir Ch. Wheeler goes on. You can stop them no inore than you can the exportation of wool: here caine, over German and French gentlemen of the horse, to buy horses; and there goes over, at least, a man to three horses; and so, many men under that pretence steal over. If there be not above 8000, how is the honour of the nation exposed! He fears the honour of the nation as much as another, but would have a reason for his fears. Lord Cavendish. It is said there are not above 2000 English and Irish.' It is strange there should be no more. They won two. battles for the French, the last summer, by their own confession, and are a number to do the like this summer: would go into a grand committee. Sir Edw. Jennings. The king tells you, he will use all effectual means for preventing the going over of more men into Trance.' If that be so good an Answer, return thanks for that part of the Answer; and, when that is done, go into a grand committee to consider the rest. Col. Birch sees many that speak, crave grains of allowance: he has most need of any, Sir Tho. Meres. What part of the king's and hopes he shall not be denied them is for Answer will require a farther Address to the a Grand Committee: if this thing be well done king, will be the subject-matter of the grand hardly any thing else can be ill done. He committee's debate. It may be, Thanks to his agrees that war and peace are in the king's maj. will be a part; we know not: sees it hand; but he thinks that in this business of contended, ' that the forces in France, before the peace with Holland, the king asked the the Treaty, are not obliged to be recalled;" advice of this house. You are embarked in but the objection must be thoroughly underit, and the miscarriage will be the fault of this stood at the committee. No man can say that there is any thing in our Address contrary to any treaty. tion is, not spoken of. Whether it be a treaty, or no; for what time, or on what condiMr. Waller. He bas formerly seen how tion, if declared, we may avoid that rock of a dear our meddling with peace and war has war. All we have told us is but a pennyproved to us. We have no light nor measure worth of news in the Gazette every week. at all in such things. All that comes to the Sometimes we know things that they do not king is from his own and foreign ambassadors. tell us. Let them set us up some marks whereThese enquiries have been very fatal and costly by we shall not touch upon the king's honour, The house, in the last Treaty with and they will be good guides to us for our deHolland, gave advice; and the king asked it. bate. The king of France is ready to overNow it falls out properly, to see how that ad-run us all, if his conquests go on. vice has been infringed; followed, or not followed. It is the nation's glory to have the king the mediator of peace, and Christian commisseration requires it. The thing is of great weight, and would go into a grand committee. to us. Sir John Ernly. Since you have had a question firsted, and seconded, for Thanks for that part of the king's Speech, of his effectual care to prevent the going over of more forces,' you ought to put it. Mr. Sec. Williamson. Here are two questions; one, the main question, about Thanks, &c. and the other, for going into a Grand Committee. If the matter be opened, doubts not but the whole Answer will require your Thanks. Supposes the thing may be done in the house, as well as in the Grand Committee. He is but young in it, and leaves that question as you please. Mr. Poule. To the first part of your Address you have a denial; to the second you have no Answer at all. There are several forces gone over since the Address: but men being sent away, and the thing depending, would therefore have it go to a grand committee. : Mr. Hale. There are few in number, indeed, of these forces left, because they are most killed he knows he saw upon the road 80 in a company: They land at Boulogne, and will not land at Calais, because in view of the packet-boats: the duke of Monmouth's regiment is recruited by these men, and Turenne's army had been lost without them; and it is said in France, they set the crown upon the king of France's head.' He has lately had opportunity to know it in France. . Mr. Vaughan. Your vote cannot make that to be, which naturally is not, viz. Thanks for the Answer, and that it is satisfactory. Possibly there may be a league in the case, and the king's honour concerned; and when we come freely to debate it, in a Grand Committee, we lay aside all these considerations. The House then resolved into a Grand Committee; sir Charles Harbord in the Chair. Mr. Garroway. This is one of the seriousest businesses that ever was in the house would do nothing in it, to involve the nation in a war; but it staggers him to hear the king's obligation named; but yet what that obliga Sir Rd. Temple. If the Proclamation recalls not these forces, he would go as far in a Bill in it as may be. Proposes a farther Address to the king, to recal all persons gone over since the Holland peace.' Mr. Sec. Williamson. How difficult is it to meddle, or come to any resolutions, in things where the facts are not known? He is not to answer for the king France's violences and oppressions. It is said he took Treves for his convenience only, and on intercession of letters, to break the neutrality of that place, he took that town himself into his possession. As soon as that spark fell upon the Palatinate, the king offered a mediation at Cologne.* Some matters are such in these affairs as cannot be laid open unto you. He thinks that the king will do more than he says. It is our great interest to balance the matter with Holland. He is as jealous of the successes of France as any man; and if this alliance be made with Holland and Deninark, and they strengthened by sea and land, we ought to think of that balance. When the peace shall be made, it is our interest to have it go through the king's hands. You were told of an exception, at Vienna, against our mediation; but he bears no such thing. Give this matter the best end you can, it will hazard our mediation. France has paid Sweden, though but a stander-by, and neutral; and whilst we show such a partiality as this recalling the forces will be, it will put the French king upon providing for himself, as not trusting our mediation. He fears that declaring ourselves so generally as is proposed in the recalling these forces, and being not obliged to it by the treaty of Holland, may be a just exception against our mediation, and may encourage France forsaking us in the general treaty of peace; they discovering we are declaring partialities, and so will reject us. "Sir Tho. Littleton. The second sort of men are gone into France, since the Holland peace: the first are wholly omitted in the Answer: doubts that the last part of the king's Answer is intricate. It is a general prohibition, but that is no part of our Address. The king tells you,' He will take any farther way to prevent their going over. If taken in a general sense, he is not satisfied that it is an Answer to our Address. As to that of the old men there, he says that there was no Article to the contrary, Sir Joseph Williamson himself was one of the Plenipotentiaries, interpret the words so, the gentleman must explain himself; and he has done it, and sees по reason why the words should be set but that the king might recal them: easy to Mr. Garroway. If we were off from France, all the world would put us upon being mediators. Col. Birch. Littleton's words were,' such a mediation as may make the king of France a terror to all Christendom.' Sir Tho. Lee. The words are to be written down, that to eternity the world may know what the opinion of this house was. Col. Titus. It belongs to the gentleman to explain himself. 'As if the king should be so inconsiderable as not to be mediator.' If any VOL. IV. Sir Wm. Coventry begs leave to pass by what has passed, as a parenthesis, and proceed to the business. It is good news to him that the balance of France was so near being made by these forces. When France first made an inroad into Holland, how long was it before there was any thing to look her in the face! France sees, by that, the danger of letting the confederates come together. When disunited and peace, no such thing as balance. That no predominant power be a terror to the rest, is our true balance between France and Spain. He wishes that the dust was a little shaken from the balance in the matter. He has not heard that mediations have been of such a value as to leave out the aid of a kingdom for them. He does not think that this withdrawing the forces would make us improper for being mediator, for some times inediations may help to obstruct peace as well as make peace. Many others are admitted for mediators as well as we. He has heard of the state of Venice, and the pope, and respects are seldom refused when offered as mediation: fears that the prevalency of France will spoil our markets more than any thing. When she has got peace, we are like to have a hard market. We can buy our wines but of one chapman then, but if France be brought low, you have choice of chapmen for any wares she can carry to market. Will offer something to the matter of recalling these forces. Does not conceive it possible to have these forces back, or prevent others going over, unless it be before Holland have peace with France. It was intended by the king and his ministers, that no more should go over; yet they do. As long as regiments and officers are there, it is his interest to have them recruited, to keep the troops up to such a degree. The root will draw nourishment as long as it grows in your garden, and to destroy it you must pluck it up. When the thing is rightly considered, hopes the king will have other thoughts. There appears no treaty between France and Holland, and is confident that there is none. We have no treaty yet finished with Holland to establish commerce, and believes we would not send subjects to assist the king of France, to make him greater, until that be settled. It is a probability, that after France has made peace, and ever shall be in a condition to reckon with us, they will do it, for making peace without them, as well as for withdrawing men away now. It is not ordinary for princes to be bound up thus; the honour of a prince, at home, is the maintenance of his subjects; and, abroad, not mistaking his interest. Did the king intimate he was to send no more forces? if the French king has used means to draw men over, he has cancelled all obligations to the contrary; therefore he hopes, that there is nothing in the whole matter but what 2 Z |