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Mr. Sacheverell thinks, if you let this pass, you may as well burn all your Journals. He has been one of the Committee for inspecting the Journals, and has had a Report ready in his hand these 4 sessions. In the session of 1672, the sense of the house was declared so, and entered otherwise. He moves for a new clerk, and that the king may be desired it. The two first pages of that session may much call in question the privilege and right of this house.

Col. Birch is for a new clerk. He has heard complaints of him these 7 years, of these miscarriages. When Birkenhead says, 'Rolls and Records,' he tells you they are so of his knowledge, and not one print agrees with the Rolls in matter and form. He takes thus the law to be. If any printed Act agrees not with the Record, a person tried may appeal to the Record, whether the law be so or not. Judge then the danger of false entering things in our books.

The Order for the day not being entered into the Journal by the Clerk, the consideration of Grievances was adjourned to Saturday next; and a Committee was appointed to inspect the Journal of the year 1672, and to examine and report the matter of the entry. Debate on Dr. Cary's Commitment by the Lords.] March 2. Lord Cavendish moved to consider of the manner of Dr. Cary's Commitment to the Tower by the lords, &c. And produced a copy of the lords Order of commitment.

Sir Tho. Clarges moves that a Committee may be appointed to search the Lords Journal, to state the matter of fact; the king having particularly recommended it to the lords care, not to occasion any difference between them and the commons.

Mr. Sec. Coventry. Dr. Cary is committed for bringing a libel to the press, which maintains that you sit wrongfully and have no right to sit as a parliament.' Whether this be not cognizable by the lords, as well as you, is the question. He has refused to give any satisfaction to the lords from whom he had the libel, and so they have committed him for libelling them, as you would have had cognizance, if he had violated or struck any lord or member.

Sir Tho. Lee fears that the lords will en

* "One Dr. Cary was brought to the bar of the house of lords, and questioned concerning a MS. treating of the illegality of the Prorogation, which he had carried to the press; and because he declined answering such questions as were put to him, and took sanctuary in the laws, which oblige no man to accuse himself, they fined him 1000l. and sent him close prisoner to the Tower till it was paid. That the lords, who had made so free with their own privileges, by submitting the liberty of four of their body at once to the pleasure of his majesty, should make thus free with both the liberty and property of a commoner, is perhaps scarce to be wondered at." Ralph.

croach precedents upon you; possibly the thing moved for is too early. But crimes against the government are not to be immediately punished in parliament for the law is open.

Mr. Sacheverell. For the seasonableness of the motion he will not speak, but the thing being come before you, the matter is, how to get off from it. 21 and 22 R. ii. a statute was made to rule that power, just as the lords do now exercise it, to prevent taking off commoners heads at their pleasure. This was the ground of all your first difference with the, lords; they taking a cause originally before them. If the power of the lords be to examine a commoner against himself, and to condemn him for not answering, he knows not what condition we all are in. He would therefore have the matter looked into, and if it appear to be as it is represented, would proceed in it; and moves for some persons to be appointed to search the lords Journal.

Mr. Sec. Coventry. If this house, and the lords house, can find no way to punish such seditious libellers, you may be pulled out of your Chair; and as they brought the late king to the block, at this rate they may do this also. And moves to proceed no farther in this thing, and the lords punishment of Dr. Cary is just.

Mr. Williams. He hears this thing of the lords commitment of Cary justified from the bar, before we know what it is. Moves to have Ernly's paper read.

Sir Wm. Coventry was ever before for a moderate course with the lords. We are told how terrible the meddling with this matter might be, but he knows not the terror of it in the enquiry. Would have you proceed to the business of the day, and inform yourselves better in this matter.

Mr. Powle has seen a copy of this Order from the lords, for the commitment of Dr. Cary. It seems a matter of that weight, that, at least, as it is put, it deserves mature consideration. If this be so, no commoner of Eng land but is at the lords mercy. This came not criminally yet before the lords; but they take it originally. Whether Dr. Cary be criminal is not the question; but the manner of his condemnation. What a man says against the government in particular is not cognizable in the lords house, any more than in another place. This is a crime no more particularly affixed to the lords than to this house. The lords examine him, and require him to accuse himself, or somebody else. By this means, any thing in the king's bench may be proceeded upon in the lords house. In this he would show that we are only upon the defensive part, and that we seek no occasion of difference with the lords. It is our desire that the precedent of 21 R. ii. may be prevented. This is so tender a point, that he would not let it go without a day to consider it farther; and would not have the world think the house so cold in so great a matter.

Mr. Sawyer. Shall any member here undertake to know what the lords do? You have only the bare inforination of this matter before you of one member of this house, and no more. He is much afraid to give countenance to things of this nature. One book now abroad concerns us. It calls us traytors and rebels for mecting as a parliament, and either house may enquire into such incendiaries. You passed the same sentence upon Mr. Howard, the last session; he would not say he did or did not write the letter, and you took it, pro confesso, and committed him to the Tower.*

Lord Cavendish. If this be a crime against the government, as is alledged, he would know whether the lords can judge it without a jury.

Mr. Sawyer. Invading our privileges, is invading the government, and such matters may be tried in either house, and this matter more especially in the lords house. Other courts may be timorous. In point of law you punish no man but as he offends against the govern

ment.

Sir Wm. Coventry will not contend matter of law with Sawyer, but would enter his claim, that we do not take ourselves to be part of the government, for then the government is no monarchy. We are only a part of the legislature; and would enter his claim against any such doctrine to be delivered here.

Mr. Sawyer. Explains himself. He acknowedges judgment and legislature, &c.

Sir Wm. Coventry takes the government to be as much, and more the ministerial part, as the legislature.

The Speaker. No cognizance can be taken of the lords proceedings unless they come regularly before you. It is the first instance of this kind. You judge them in their judicature of what is not before you. You may do it to any part of their judicature, as well as this. You may else raise what you cannot lay. But he is always for the privilege of this house. Sir To. Lee remembers one man (Fitton) punished by the lords for making application to this house. It is a proper and regular way, and this matter may be brought before you by information of a member, as well as by petition from the party grieved. The question is not about the crime, but whether Dr. Cary be regularly brought to punishment. Here a man is committed without impeachment; you are the jury, and all men ought to be tried per pares. He thinks this properly represented to you, and would farther consider of it.

Sir H. Goodrick. In this matter we are under so great a restraint, that he knows not how we shall deliver ourselves. The eyes and prayers of the country are that we may have no difference with the lords. But when he considers the cries of the people, and the king's advice to us, in his Speech, not to entertain differences with the lords, and that it is not a time of day to do it, they that press this, he declares, are no friends to the good of the na

* See p. 770.

tion: explains what he has said, and will make it good. But submits it to the judgment of the house, and farther, whoever proceeds so is no friend to the nation. He has thought of it, and hopes to make it good,

Lord Cavendish. Is sorry to bear so great a reflection from Goodrick upon all gentlemen concerned in this debate, and upon himself who brought the debate in. No gentlemen that debated this but are as good friends to the nation,' and would not proceed, as little as Goodrick, to a difference with the lords; and must say, That from Goodrick was an indiscreet expression. He was taken down to Order.

Col. Birch. By order of the house, the words whereby lord Cavendish was offended must be written down, and asserted. Thinks that Goodrick said,' they that press this business are no friends to the nation.'

Sir Philip Harcourt. The business is of a great nature, and he would have you, Mr. Speaker, declare, by order, whether the words are not to be asserted, and written down, before any explanation be admitted of them.

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Mr. Garroway. Goodrick owned his words, and brought them to his own explanation. Your order is, those words that gave exception ought to be written down,' and you debate whether those words were said, or not. He believes Goodrick will so explain himself as to give you satisfaction.

Serj. Maynard apprehends the words were very bad, but let them be what they will, if you go to censure the person for the words, they must be written down. It was his own case twice, long ago, but he had liberty first to explain himself: for a man may sometimes outgo himself, and it may be every man's

case.

Sir H. Goodrick. He is ready to give satisfaction to the house, and every particular membcr. He intended no reflection upon any gentleman. His words were: He that promoted this difference betwixt the lords and us was an enemy to the nation.' That was his intention, whatever were his words.

Sir Tho. Meres doubts that the words were otherwise, but would have them accepted as the gentlemen says he intended them. He would have us all bear with one another. We have always borne with the interpretation of the man that spoke the words, and without doubt, he is no friend to the nation, that promotes differences between the lords, and us.' But to go on, he believes that lord Cavendish brings the Order for Dr. Cary's commitment, by the lords, regularly before you; it is by the very same method as you went in sir John Fagg's case. You were informed of it by a member then, and no otherwise, and the farther consideration thereof was adjourned till Monday. To-morrow is the day appointed to consider of grievances; and this is the greatest, No man here, he believes, values Dr. Cary in prison, neither the man nor the punishment; but the manner of laying the punishment is

what we have reason to except against. This is not the privilege of a particular lord.

Lord Cavendish called Meres to Order, viz. That Goodrick meant particularly what he said to reflect upon himself, and not generally speaking.

Sir Wm. Coventry. What he heard Goodrick speak was, That they are no friends to the nation that promote a difference between the lords and us.' We have great reason, in these cases, to give grains of allowance to one another. In ancient times but a few persons spoke in the house, and their speeches were ready penned. The powder and shot was ready made up in cartridges; ready cut and dried, and a man had then time to think; but now we speak on a sudden, and therefore would have some grains of allowance given.

Lord Burleigh* thinks that Goodrick's words particularly reflected upon lord Cavendish,t and would have them set down.

Sir Henry Goodrick. He should speak much against both his obligations and judgment, if he intended lord Cavendish, in what he said, or any other gentleman, in particular.

Sir Tho. Meres is glad that an end is made of this matter, as to lord Cavendish, who, be thinks, bas satisfaction from Goodrick. But he would consider the manner of this judgment (upon Dr. Cary) of the lords, on a commoner. We ought to have as great and as good a privilege as the lords, but would not go on this, without being extremely clear, and | perhaps we may find out more privilege than we know of already. Will press no question, but that the matter stands fair for another consideration.

privileges. No man will think so irreverently of the king. And you, Mr. Speaker, may go out of the chair without any question, in this matter, and he will move it again when we are better informed.*

Debate on a Bill to repeal the Statute of Wages to Members of Parliament.] March 3. Sir Harbottle Grimstone, (Master of the Rolls) moved, that he might have leave to bring in a Bill for the Indemnifying the Counties, Cities and Boroughs from paying any Wages now due to Members that serve in Parliament, and desired it might be in particular for Colchester, the place he serves for. For a writ had gone down from sir John Shaw, (his fellow burgess) to receive his wages for service done in parliament.†

Mr. Williams. The statute of limitations will cut off all the Wages, but of the last six years. He is against removing old land marks: what is an evidence betwixt nian and man, electors and elected, he would not remove. He is not for imposing any thing upon corporations; he will trust his own corporation, but not every little borough. The Wages will not be due for a whole year, but for the days only that we sit here. He would trust the generosity of the members, in this of their Wages, and not have a bill for it. He has already released his wages.

Mr. Powle. The statute of limitations cuts not off a debt, but from six years after it is due; and this is not due till the parliament is ended, and therefore not cut off by that statute. Williams says, That wages are not due but for the days you sit here.' But for those that come from Cumberland, and such Serj. Maynard. If there be public breaches remote places, they have had sometimes 14 days on the liberty of the people, it is not strange allowed them, and to all the members, moto enquire into them. He fears this commit- rando, redeundo, eundo. And if wages be ment of Dr. Cary has raised more dust than demanded accordingly, it will ruin many poor can be laid. He must come into a court boroughs. We are now estimated to have sat where he may be indicted, and no man must in this parliament 3000 days, which will be be accused but by writ from some of the 6007. and the question is, whether Wages are king's courts.' It will be one question, Whe- not due in prorogations, as well as adjournther Dr. Cary has offended before the parliaments. For the ill use that may be made of ment sat, or since; in or out of parliament? if a man be brought here for words spoken against this house, will not you commit him? if a man contemns any court, that court may fine any man. If the matter will hold you may go on, else it is a very ill thing to contend in this matter. If he be committed for contempt of an order, see what it is; and then consider whether you will go through or not.

Mr. Garroway. If Dr. Cary be committed for contempt indefinite, and we desire to know the cause from the lords, and they tell you it is for a breach of their privilege, then there is an end of it. The king, in what he said of avoiding controversy with the lords, never intended thereby to cut you off from your just

* Son of the earl of Exeter, to which title he succeeded, on his father's death, in 1687. He died in France in 1700;

↑ He married lord Cavendish's sister.

this, when this parliament is at an end, he would have wages cut off. For debts, when they are grown old, are very heavy when paid, and consider how we load them now by this tax we have granted. But he would have this discharge of Wages for no more than what is already incurred, and not forward.

Mr. Sawyer. You have been offered the statute of limitations. That of Wages is not an action, but in the nature of a judicial writ, unto which the statute of limitation is not to be pleaded, being matter of record. Some wages have been already paid, and some persons are but lately come in. But he looks upon it for

There is no mention of this debate in the

Journal.

† Andrew Marvell, who was member for Kingston upon Hull, is said to have been the last who received these wages.

the honour of the house, that, where wages have not been received, we may imitate the statute of limitations; excepting the two last years.

Mr. Boscawen knows not why Sawyer, that has been here but two years, should give away his wages that has been here 16 years. It is generally promised at elections, in boroughs, to serve freely, and why an act should not be to confirm those promises, he knows not. He thinks it worthy your consideration to put the boroughs out of fear. For hereafter they will chuse their own burgesses, blue aprons, and gentlemen no more.

Mr. Finch is not for this bill, though thus magnified to you. All Wages are limited to eundo, morando, redeundo, and expressly limited by the writ to levy it. By 6 H. viii. No person that departs from parliament without leave of the Speaker and house, entered first into the Journal, shall have his Wages.' And Prynne's Register of Writs goes so far as to prove attendance here every daybut by this bill you take away from every gentleman an opportunity of obliging his corpora

tion.

Sir Wm. Thompson intimated, that the city of London paid Wages formerly. He has received no wages, though the city is able to pay them.

Mr. Love. He never received any Wages from the city, nor demanded any, because he thinks he never deserved any at their hands. A Bill was ordered to be brought in accordingly.

Sir Tho. Strickland expelled.] March 6. Sir Tho. Strickland sent a Letter to the Speaker, in answer to the notice which the Speaker had sent him by Order of the house, (p. 835) by way of excuse for his non-attendance in parliament, &c.

Resolved, "That whereas it doth appear to this house, that sir Tho. Strickland, a member of this house, is convicted upon record of Popish Recusancy, that he be from henceforth disabled from being any longer a member of this house." And a new writ was ordered for Westmoreland.

Debate on the Bill to repeal the Statute of Wages to Members of Parliament, resumed.] March 13. The Bill for releasing the Counties, &c. from all Wages due to Members, &c. was read the first time.

Mr. Powle. Now there is so great an arrear run into by boroughs to their burgesses, that the payment will be inconvenient to many, and will ruin some; and may have such an influence that if the borough will not make such a man an officer, or chuse such a man member, &c. they will sue them for Wages, and so they may be subjected to particular persons.

Sir John Birkenhead. It is dishonourable in the house to do this, when no petition is sent from any borough to desire it, representing it as prejudicial to them. Let them that desire it have that self-denying ordinance, boroughs complaining not of it. The best remedy for

the fears of the boroughs is, for every man to forgive the Wages they owe him. The loss of wages is the only punishment the law has made for the absence of parliament-men from their attendance. He fears there is a worse end in it, that men should be posted who are against the bill. We may, by the next post, oblige our boroughs, by a letter, to release wages, without this bill, and, he supposes that unless we demand wages by a writ, after the session is over, we cannot have it.

Sir Tho. Meres. There is a jealousy that you will take wages, if you throw the bill out, and it will be very ill taken by those you represent.

Mr. Crouch. He never received wages for the place he serves for, and never will: but the bill is not fit to pass. Will you take away any man's land? Why will you take away his wages?

Sir Philip Warwick moves that as many gentlemen as will may release their wages.

Sir Rd. Temple. It is a reflection on the house, to discharge the wages by law; but he would have it a free-will offering.

Mr. Swynfin. If you think of casting this bill out, then he would have a bill brought in to make a law that Wages shall be taken. He is sure, now the thing is here in question, it will put such an awe upon corporations, for fear of having wages called for, who never thought of it before, that he thinks it a point of honesty in the house to declare they will not call for wages from the corporations, who else would be so aniversally deceived in so much expectation they should not pay wages. If we should now lay aside this bill, it would be scarce honourable, or honest. These 80 or 100 years wages have been scarce received, and now, that, for 14 years and upwards, members have not called for any, this is an intimation between man and man that they will never call for it. As if no rent has been paid for 80 years, and now we will fall on with all that weight. It is an implied promise, that they will not be called for, and that they are forgiven; and the throwing out the bill will revive a jealousy that they will be demanded. That which obliges corporations, in this, must oblige as the king's act, by act of grace, by taking away the puuishment of penal laws. You would take it as a danger, if asked and denied.

Sir Tho. Lee knows not how long the parliament will last, and he knows not how his executors will deal with the borough he serves for, when he is dead; and therefore he is for the bill.

Mr. Waller. By this bill, we ask the lords leave to be bountiful to the people; by making it a law, we do it. We have ordered money for the servants here that attend us: he had rather forty times give it to the boroughs, than ask the lords leave. Some in the house are so poor, and some of the boroughs, so rich, that to force men not to take Wages would not be equal justice.

Address to the King on the Growth of the power of France.] March 15. Both houses presented the following Address to his majesty: "May it please your majesty; we your majesty most loyal subjects, the lords spiritual and temporal, and the knights, citizens, and burgesses, in parliament assembled, find ourselves obliged, in duty and faithfulness to your majesty, and in discharge of the trust reposed in us by those whou: we represent, most humbly to offer to your majesty's serious consideration, That the minds of your majesty's people are much disquieted, with the manifest danger arising to your najesty's kingdoms by the Growth and Power of the French king, especially by the acquisitions already made, and the further progress likely to be made by him, in the Spanish Netherlands; in the preservation and security whereof, we humbly conceive, the interest of your maj. and the safety of your people are highly concerned. And therefore we most humbly beseech your maj. to take the same into your royal care and to strengthen yourself with such stricter alliances as may secure your majesty's kingdoms, and preserve and secure the said Netherlands, and thereby quiet the minds of your majesty's people."

The King's Answer.] To the above Address the king gave the following Answer: "That he is of the same opinion with his two houses of parliament, that the conservation of Flanders is of great importance to England; and that therefore he assured them, that he will take all the care for the preservation of Flanders that can possibly consist with the peace and safety of the kingdom.

Debate on Mr. Harrington's Commitment by the Council.] March 16. Mr. Sacheverell presented a Petition, subscribed John Harrington'. The warrant of Commitment on

"One Mr. Harrington, the son of a Cavalier who had suffered much in the royal cause, while the house was sitting, happened to meet with two Scotchmen, returned from abroad, who complained, that they had been pressed out of Scotland into the French king's service; and that there were several hundreds of their countrymen, as well as themselves, who had been forced from their houses, wives and families, bound together; and so, like galley-slaves, secured in the public gaols; their friends and relations not being suffered to come near them; and from thence put on shipboard, and transported into the service of France, contrary to the Addresses of parliament, his majesty's Answers thereunto, proclamation thereupon, and, what is of more authority than all, the privilege of nature itself; that exempts every man alike, from being forced into a danger, in which he has no concern. Mr. Harrington was touched with their case, and thinking himself happy in an opportunity that bid fair to put a stop to those supplies which were sent almost daily to France,brought these Scotsmen to several members of parliament, to whom they evidenced

the back side of the Petition was read, viz. 'You are to take into your custody John Harrington, for suspicious practices, &c'

Mr. Sec. Williamson. The ground of this

the same things: his view was to have them examined at the bar of the house, when time should serve; and, in the mean while, fearing that endeavours might be used to corrupt them, he carried them to a master in Chancery, who took their depositions upon oath.-This was scarce done, before he was seized by a messenger, carried before the king and council, and accused of suborning those Scotsmen to disturb his majesty's government. While under examination, he was not well treated by the lord chancellor (these are his own words) and extremely ill by the lord treasurer; and, upon the issue, was committed close prisoner to the Tower (the cause assigned in the warrant being for Subornation of Perjury, tending to the defamation of his maj. and his government; and for contemptuously declaring, he would not answer his majesty any question, which his majesty, or his privy council, should ask him); debarred the use of pen and ink, the access of his friends, confined in such a place over the Tower ditch, as threw him into a dangerous sickness; and denied the assistance of either physician or divine: after all this, he made a hard shift to get a Petition presented to the house of commons; which produced an order for his being brought before the house; before whom he gave a clear account of the whole matter, and of his behaviour at the council-board.-But of the two Scots soldiers, the one made himself perjured, without being suborned by Harrington; denying, or misrepresenting to the house, what he had sworn formerly: and the other, the ho nester fellow it seems of the two, only absented. However, divers members of that house attested voluntarily, that the soldiers had affirmed the same thing to them: and indeed the truth of that matter became notorious, by several other soldiers that came over afterwards, and by further account from Scotland. Mr. Harrington also carried himself towards the house with so much modesty, that it seemed inseparable from him; so that a disposition appeared in the members to have concerned themselves for his liberty; when Mr. Secretary Williamson stood up, having been a principal instrument in committing him, and, because the other crimes rather deserved thanks and commendation, and the warrant would not justify itself, he insisted upon his strange demeanour towards his majesty; deciphered his very looks, says Mr. Marvell; and but that his majesty and the house remained still living flesh and blood, it might have been imagined, by his discourse, that Mr. Harrington had the head of a Gorgon. But this story so wrought with, and amazed the commons, that the prisoner found no redress, but might thank God that he escaped again into close prison." Ralph.

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