I think, is one of very considerable importance. They stated, in answer to our reasoning on this question, that this was the mere opinion of Dens; and they stated that all the clergy at this discussion rejected the principles of Dens, and that no such principles were, of course, maintained in Ireland. Now it seems to me to be a very remarkable dispensation of Providence-and, as far as I am concerned in all this painful task, I must say, that the only thing that can support me (and I trust in God it does support me) in bearing the testimony which secures me the scorn and contempt of many of my fellow-mortals—I say it is this, that the hand of God, from beginning to end, has appeared to be alone manifest in it; for we sought not, we knew not of those principles till God was pleased to lay them all before us; and every effort that has been made to counteract this statement has been overruled by the providence of God, to bring out some other truths that clearly substantiated them all. I look to this with particular gratitude, not only for the Protestants of this empire, but, if I might say so, still more for the Roman Catholics; for I do trust in God, that it is his blessed will to bring out those things, and to raise up the witnesses of his truth, not for evil, but for good, and a blessing to the Roman Catholics of this empire-that they may be called out of darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God-that they may be delivered from those awful principles and refuges of lies which they themselves know cannot bear the light-brought to the knowledge of the glorious gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Now there was one point remarked on at the first meeting at Exeter Hall, which was, the terms in which the question, as to the punishment of heretics, was proposed at the conferences of the priests-namely, "What are the punishments decreed?" "Quæ pœnæ latæ," decreed by the laws of the church against heretics. In Dens, the title of the chapter is, "Of the punishments of the crime of heresy." In the conference, the very words of the question prove that the punishments are regulated by law. Now it was a singular fact, that after the Birmingham meeting, the very day after, I say, this book [holding up a small book] was put into my hands. This was written by a priest in 1821, and he calls it, "A development of the cruel and inquisitorial laws of the Church of Rome in Ireland." This individual declares that he incurred the hatred of his bishop and his priests, by his strict adherence to the laws of the country, and his determination not to countenance those discords and seditious principles that tended to violate the law; and

he tells us that the principles of persecution in this book of Dens, were circulated under the authority of the Romish hierarchy in Ireland. A gentleman, who is a Roman Catholic, had asked the question at a public meeting in Dublin, "How was it possible, that if Dens's principles prevailed in Ireland, not one of the converted priests had ever brought it out?" Now the work to which I have referred, declares that Dens's Theology was selected, and printed, and adopted in Ireland, and it gives the very question in this chapter on the punishment of heresy, "Quæ pœnæ contra hæreticos latæ ?” This is the very question in 1832, and we have it printed in 1821, as having been discussed in Kilkenny in 1815, in a parish of that diocese. I say it is very remarkable that every effort they have made to refute has, under the hands of God, been only the means of eliciting more evidence to corroborate the truth of the statement.

I call your attention to the answer of Dens to this question, proposed in 1832: he says, in the first place, "External heresy has annexed to it the greater excommunication of the sententia lata." Now let me read from this BLACK BOOK, an authority corroborative of this. This is on the text, "He that will not hear, let him be unto thee as a heathen or publican ;" and is as follows::

"St. Matthew xviii. 17. (Not hear the Church.) Not only heretics, but any other obstinate offender, that will not be judged nor ruled by the Church, may be excommunicated, and so made as an heathen or publican was to the Jews, by the discipline of the same; casting him out of the fellowship of Catholics. Which excommunication is a greater punishment than if he were executed by a sword, fire, and wild beasts. And again, he saith, Man is more sharply and pitifully bound by the church's key, than with any iron or adamantine manacles or fetters, in the world. Verse 17. (The heathen.) Heretics, therefore, because they will not hear the church, be no better, nor no otherwise to be esteemed of Catholics, than heathen men and publicans were esteemed among the Jews."

This is the excommunication of the sententia lata. I shall not detain you with entering into a disquisition on this subject, but will briefly explain that there are two sentences-one is the sententia lata, which means already decreed-the other sententia ferenda, that is to be decreed. The lata is, that when one is guilty of a crime, the sentence is ipso facto, pronounced against him; therefore, every Protestant in the empire stands, by the authority of the Romish law, under

sentence of excommunication.

The ferenda is, when brought to

trial for any crime, and that crime denounced by the authority of the church. Therefore he (Dens) declares, that all heretics are to be considered as heathens and publicans by the church.

He says also,-" Heretics that are known to be such, are infamous, ipso jure, and are deprived of Christian burial.

"Their temporal goods are, ipso jure, confiscated; but, before the execution of this act, the sentence declaratory of their crime ought to proceed from the ecclesiastical judge, because the cognizance of heresy lies in the ecclesiastical tribunal.

"Finally, they are also justly afflicted with other corporal punishments, as with exile, imprisonment," &c.

Now, what saith this authority [the black book] as to the persons and goods of heretics.

"St. John ii. 15. (Drove them all out.) By this chastising corporeally the defilers and abusers of the temple, he doth not only show his power, that being but one poor man, he could by force execute his pleasure upon so many sturdy fellows, but also his sovereign authority over all offenders, and that not upon their souls only, as by excommunication and spiritual penalties, but upon their bodies and goods also. That the spiritual may learn how far, and in what cases, for just zeal of Christ's church, they may use and exercise, both spiritually and temporally, their forces and faculties against offenders, especially against the profaner's of God's church, according to the apostle's allusion, 1 Cor. 3d verse-If any man defile the temple of God, him will God DESTROY.'"

So you perceive, by this authority, that the person is to be excommunicated, as stated here, and that not only the persons, but the goods, are to be under the power of the spiritual Judge.

The next question-(are heretics justly punished with death?) "St. Thomas answers, YES-because forgers of money or other disturbers of the state are justly punished with death, therefore also heretics, who are forgers of the faith, and as experience testifies, grievously disturb the state.

"This is confirmed, because God in the Old Testament ordered the false prophets to be slain; and in Deut. xvii. 12, it is decreed that if any one will act proudly and will not obey the commands of the priest, let them be put to death. See also the eighteenth chapter.

"The same is proved from the condemnation of the 14th article of John Huss, in the Council of Constance."-Dens, vol. ii. pp. 83, 89.

You see here that the authority of the Scripture, given to the priests acting, with a temporal judge, under the old law, is deduced from the Scriptures, as applied to the priesthood of the New Testament; and that you may more fully understand this, I shall read to you from the Bible the note to which it refers.

"Deuteronomy xvii. 8. (If thou perceive, &c.) Here we see what authority God was pleased to give to the church-guides of the Old Testament, in deciding without appeal, all controversies relating to the law, promising that they should not err therein, and punishing with death such as proudly refused to obey their decisions, and surely he has not done less for the church-guides of the New Testament."

Now, I brought this book from Ireland weighty as it is, [holding up a large folio Bible,] for the special purpose of reading that one text to you; and that you may see that this principle of the Roman Catholic Church, is a principle identified with its existence in every part of the empire. This is not an Irish Bible, it was printed at Manchester, 1813, and this note annexing the penalties, the power of life and death, to the Church of Rome, was printed in this Bible in England, as well as in the Bibles in Ireland; and this note appeared in the very first edition of the Douay Bible, which was printed in 1609, and it has been reprinted in almost every edition of the Douay Bible, along with the notes that have been published since. But I merely brought it for the purpose of showing that this power of life and death was lodged in the priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church, and is assumed by the priests in England as well as by those in Ireland, as to which you will learn more just now. But let me read to you a passage from this RED BOOK, on the punishing with death.

"Matthew xiii. 29, 30. (Lest perhaps.) The good must tolerate the evil when it is so strong that it cannot be redressed without danger and disturbance of the whole church, and commit the matter to God's judgment in the latter day; otherwise, where ill men, be they heretics or other malefactors, may be punished or suppressed without disturbance and hazard of the good, they may and ought, by public authority, either spiritual or temporal, TO BE CHASTISED OR EXECUTED.”

Mark this; it is not expedient for the Church always to exercise its authority.

Here is another commentary on Revelations xvii. 6.

"Rev. xvii. 6. Drunk with the blood.' It is plain, that this woman signifieth the whole body of all the persecutors that have, and shall, shed so much blood of the just, of the prophets, apostles, and other martyrs, from the beginning of the world to the end. The Protestants foolishly expound it of Rome, for that there they put heretics to death, and allow of their punishment in other countries-but their blood is not called the blood of saints, no more than the blood of thieves, mankillers, and other malefactors, for the shedding of which, by order of justice, no commonwealth shall answer."

These are commentaries upon the Scriptures of God giving the power to the Church of Rome to put heretics to death; and it were an insult to the understanding of every one who hears me, to ask if these are not identical with Dens's Theology.

Now, before I enter farther on this subject, I shall advert to the authority quoted here, namely to the authority of the Council of Constance, for putting men to death. This authority you will find to be of more importance than persons are in general inclined to annex to it. It has been denied that the Council of Constance violated its faith to John Huss, in putting him to death. Dr. Murray denied it even before the House of Commons. Dr. Brown denied it the other day at Birmingham. He explained that the safe-conduct given by the Emperor Sigismund was not violated-it was a common passport, and that no faith was broken with Huss. Now there is an authority on that subject which I have never seen adverted to, and which, I believe, is not generally known, but which is altogether conclusive on the subject; and I cannot advert to this authority in the city of Glasgow, without bearing my testimony to that honoured source from which I derived my first knowledge of it, and by which my attention was first turned to investigate the subject. The only testimony which I shall bear is this-that Scotland would not now be, as she is, dishonoured in so many places by the introduction of this awful superstition among her population-chapels and colleges would not be being built and endowed in Scotland, for the propagation of Popery-England would not be, as she is, dishonoured, by having popish perjury rearing its front within her senate-Ireland would not be, as she is, dishonored by having the property, that ought to be expended in the propagation and maintenance of the doctrines of Christ, confiscated for the ser