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sure of contrast, to that which Par- | nourished in his mind, after the proliament had sanctioned in principle ceedings of the Session of 1813, when during the preceding Session. They that Bill emanated from the Commitnow solicited unqualified admission tee, and when the first clause of it into the Constitution, and claimed it was lost only by a majority of four; as a matter of justice at the hands of from that moment he considered the the Legislature; and regarding that as principle as carried; but he now obthe only object of their petition, he served with the deepest regret, that certainly was anxious that the Com- the day of emancipation instead of apmittee should be granted, if it were proaching nearer, was receding from only that an opportunity might thus their view. Why did the noble Lord be afforded of pronouncing distinctly now speak with despondency upon the the sense of Parliament on that sub- subject? because things had occurred ject; and that the Catholics them- in Ireland which took away from the selves might be taught, if they again friends of the Catholics, and from the applied to Parliament, that tone of Catholics themselves, that sanguine moderation which could alone insure expectation of success which they beto them the ultimate object of their fore entertained. For himself, he wishes. He did not consider himself, could set at naught all the violent and therefore, as acting with any incon- idle speeches made against Members sistency in voting for the Committee, of that House, but when he found though he should feel it his duty in the that they have defeated themselves by Committee to mark his most decided their conduct, he could not overlook opposition to unqualified concession. or fail to lament such conduct. At the Nor should he feel himself called upon same time it might be observed that the either to modify the propositions of conduct of Mr. O'Connell in Ireland, the Honourable Baronet, or to sub- had been exactly the same as that of mit any others of a different descrip- the Right Hon. Secretary, who, by all tion; for unless the Catholics greatly kinds of exaggeration, endeavoured altered their conduct, he was per- to aggravate the Protestants, as Mr. suaded, that instead of this country O'Connell, by exaggeration, thought becoming more inclined to conciliate to inflame the Catholics; and if the them, the question would lose ground Noble Lord could sit patiently and by repeated discussion. He had thus hear such language from the Right briefly stated his present opinions upon Honourable Secretary, he must say the subject, and should abstain from that there appeared as little hope of going into any general view of its me- conciliation on one side as on the other. But there was a Gentleman, who, in all former discussions, had occupied a very prominent part in the debate, whose name had not even been mentioned that night, to his (Mr. Whitbread's) very great surprise; not a word had been said about the Pope, the terrible Pope, Bonaparte's Pope, the Pope who was to have been met by an Irish Pope at Ballyshannon. And why was that Gentleman totally forgotten? Because he had not been found what was expected; because he was the mere tool of Bonaparte, The course of the Catholics since 1813 had certainly been a bad one; and if any one part of their conduct was more

rits.

Mr. Whitbread said he concurred with the Noble Lord in his opinion that a Committee would be desirable, though there were many of the propositions against which he (Mr. W.) should vote, but he must think that if the Committee were granted, it ought to do something else than merely to negative the wishes of the Catholics for unqualified concession, without also doing that which all were agreed might and ought to be done, in behalf of our fellow-subjects in Ireland. The hope of qualified concession, of concession with such securities as were thought necessary, had been strongly

marked by want of judgment than another (he spoke without the slightest disparagement of his Honourable Friend), it was removing their Petition from the hands in which their cause had been so long sanctified. Still, however, in determining upon the simple question, whether they should go into a Committee, he would say aye, not because the Honourable Baronet had a string of propositions to submit, but because there were concessions which might be made in that Committee, that would do much towards conciliation. The army, the navy, and the bar, in the opinion of those who were decidedly hostile to unqualified concession, might be thrown open to them; it had been said, also, they might be allowed protection both in the army and navy in their religious worship; and were those things nothing? Did they not constitute a boon which the Catholics might be happy to receive, and which the Legislature ought to be desirous to grant? Were they to vote for the Committee, like the Noble Lord, expressly for the purpose of negativing that which all agreed might be conceded, because Mr. O'Connell made violent speeches, which were in truth quite unimportant, or because Dr. Dromgole made speeches, not only violent, but absurd? He hoped he should live to see the day when the present conductors of the Catholics would be removed, or if not removed, that they themselves would change, return to a sound discretion, and choose their former leader. He should most heartily vote for the motion, as being the only course, under present circumstances, which afforded any prospect of success; but had he been asked whether this year or the next, or what period would have been best for bringing the subject forward, his answer would have been, ask Mr. Grattan,

Mr. W. Pole said, that if he thought, by voting for the Committee, he was to be considered as pledged to a support of the propositions, he certainly

should not give his vote that way; but, conceiving the question to be, not whether they should agree to the Resolutions, but whether they should go into a consideration of the laws af. fecting the Catholics of Ireland generally, he had no hesitation in voting for it. From all the opportunities which he had had of ascertaining the opinions of the Irish Catholics, he was satisfied that neither the Catholic Board nor the Catholic Prelates spoke the sense of the Catholic population of that country; on the contrary, he believed, that if the Bill of 1813 had passed, they would now perceive the great body of the Catholics coming forward to acknowledge the manner in which they had been deluded by demagogues, and to thank the Legislature for what it had done.

and

Mr. Elliot said, he had so often stated the views which he entertained upon the subject then before them, that he had no intention of going into the question at any length; but he should, as heretofore, vote for going into the Committee, in order to consider the general claims of the Catholics, with out pledging himself to any particular line of conduct when in that Committee. In 1813 he had voted for qualifications, because he felt, from the heated prejudices and passions which then inflamed mens' minds, that there was no other chance of success, but in a spirit of mutual conciliation; under similar circumstances he should vote exactly the same, because he believed that in so doing he not only served the cause he had at heart, but should obtain the approbation of a large portion of the Catholic body. He lamented, as a great error of judg ment, that their cause had been re moved from the hands of his Right Hon. Friend; at the same time he thought the House should rise superior to any feeling of resentment which might lead it to visit the errors of a few upon the interests of a community, and those interests too so largely bound up with the general welfare of the state.

Mr. Huskisson lamented, in common with all who had spoken on the subject, the conduct and the language of the Catholics of Ireland-conduct and language much more calculated to retard the attainment of their object, than the arguments of those who conscientiously opposed their claims. He should certainly, however, vote for the Committee; because when any considerable portion of his Majesty's subjects came to Parliament, complaining of privations and disabilities, he for one would never oppose the consideration of their grievances. At the same time he wished it to be distinctly understood, with reference to the Resolutions which had been proposed, that either on this or on any other subject, he hoped the House of Commons would never allow itself to

be dictated to.

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have of the sentiments of this House convinces me that such a proposition will not pass. When the Petitioners desire emancipation, without any conditions, they desire two things-they desire emancipation, and then they desire that it may not be granted, because the annexation of no conditions must render the grant in this House impossible. I should therefore have flattered the Catholics had I told them they were entitled to expect a decision in their favour, because I know that under those circumstances that cannot be. I wish to support, and I mean to support the Catholic Question with a desperate fidelity-if I may so exdespress myself. I use the word perate,' not with reference to any disposition on my part to sacrifice a single principle of good Government or a single necessary security on that Mr. Grattan-Sir, exhausted as the question, but because to my fidelity I subject is, I trust that the House will cannot promise success. Sir, unless allow me to trouble them with a few the Catholic Body pursue a conciliasentences. I do not wish to give a tory line of conduct-unless they silent vote upon the question, parti- come to this House, not with a silent cularly circumstanced as I am with and implied, but with a declared atrespect to it. I shall certainly vote tachment to the vital principles of the for going into the Committee, on the Constitution, they will not succeed. principle which has been so generally I have told them before, and I now stated this evening; that the only repeat it, that unless they adopt a thing we have at present to determine spirit of conciliation, they will never is, whether or not the Catholic Ques- succeed. I will say further, that contion shall be taken into consideration. ciliation is not only necessary to their But in giving this vote, Sir, I by no interest, but essential to their duty, means pledge myself to the support both to the state and to one another. of the Resolutions which my Honour- If Catholic Emancipation should not able Friend has exhibited. Further, finally be carried, it will be owing, I must say, that for some of those not to the want of candour and conResolutions I cannot vote. I beg sideration on the part of the Legisla leave to observe, in considering the ture, but to the want of prudence and Catholic Question, that it is not suf- discretion on the part of some Cathoficient to dwell merely on what may lics, who do not assist the Protestant be strictly and absolutely necessary friends of their cause by expressing some regard ought to be paid to the their ready concurrence in the adop feelings of those by whom that ques- tion by Parliament of such securities, tion is to be determined. I have no as to their feelings may appear neceshesitation in saying that I condemn (Isary, and which at the same time may am sorry if I give offence to persons who are of a different opinion), but I condemn the application for unqualified concession. The knowledge I

not be inconsistent with the Catholic religion. Unless they do this, they will fail in their efforts, and their failure will be solely attributable to

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I

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, May 19, 1815.

CATHOLIC

PETITION.

The Earl of Donoughmore said, that the Petition of his Catholic countrymen, which had been again con

their want of discretion. Sir, I have an ardent love for the Catholic Body. I do not ascribe the errors of some individuals to the body at large. But I once more say, that unless they adopt a spirit of conciliation, they have not the smallest chance of success. will trouble the House no further. In voting for the Committee, I do not pledge myself to support all my Ho-fided to him, he should then solicit nourable Friend's Resolutions, but only some of them. Should the House go into the Committee, I shall again express those sentiments on this important question which have been already registered, and which remain unchanged.

Sir H. Parnell made a short reply, in which he contended that the discussion of the subject must be serviceable, and that as a Member of Parliament, it was his bounden duty to lay the case of the Catholics before the House. He urged the House to consent to the Committee, and expressed his conviction that he should be able in that Committee to explain his Resolutions in a way that would be thoroughly satisfactory.

After a few words in explanation from Mr. Peel, the House divided:For the Committee, 147-Against it, 228-Majority, 81.

Wednesday, May 31.

Mr. James Daly presented a Petition from the Catholics of the County of Galway, praying relief, and regretted that the decision of last night had been so unfavourable to the wishes of the Petitioners. Having been so unfortunate as to have been shut out of the division last night, he took this opportunity of stating his entire concurrence with the motion of the Honourable Baronet, being fully convinced that without putting the Catholics of this empire on a footing of equality with their Protestant fellow-subjects, we shall want that cordiality which is so necessary to the prosperity of the two countries.

their Lordships' permission to lay upon the table of that House. Upon its subject matter, which had already, and so often engaged the attention of Parliament, it was equally unneces sary, aud inconsistent with the present stage of the proceeding, that he should offer any observation. He thought it however not unfitting that he should apprise their Lordships, that the signatures to that Petition were numerous and respectable; not that he should wish to attribute to that consideration any very particular degree of weight. It was not to the rank or number of the Petitioners, but to the grievances of which they complained, that their Lordships' attention would necessarily be directed. And where the disfranchisement of a large class of the community, without any imputed civil offence, constituted the weighty ground of these renewed complaints, their Lordships would not surely pause to count the number of those who might have thought it expedient to raise their voices up, at this particular crisis, against the general grievance. The common principle of exclusion must be considered to unite, in pursuit of the same redress, naturally and as a matter of course and of necessity, every mem ber of the proscribed cast, of whatever description or degree, and how far soever those amongst them, the most distinguished for rank and property, for talent and discretion, had agreed in sentiments with each other, or may perhaps have differed in opinion, respecting the manner in which these appeals to Parliament have been, or ought to have been, framed and conducted.

The Petition having been received | stood that the consideration of the and read, the Noble Lord appointed Catholic Petition would be moved on Thursday se'nnight, the 1st of June, Tuesday. for its consideration, and for which day the House was ordered to be summoned.

May 22.

The Earl of Liverpool proposed, that the notice for the Catholic Business should be fixed for Tuesday, subject to be put off till Thursday, in case the Noble Earl, not then in his place, insisted upon the preference for his motion. And it was according

The Marquis of Lansdown presented a Petition from the Catholics of Kerry, but perceiving an informality in the Petition with regard to the sig-ly so settled. natures, which appeared upon a different paper from that on which the Petition was written, the noble Marquis consented to withdraw it.

The Earl of Donoughmore, after a few observations, postponed his intended motion upon the Catholic question, from Thursday till Friday se'ennight.

Lord Kenyon suggested the propriety of a further postponement, in consequence of the indisposition of the Lord Chancellor, to whom a long discussion, at an early day, was but too likely to be very inconvenient.

Lord Donoughmore lamented the indisposition of the Learned Lord alluded to, but declared, he should not feel himself justified in agreeing to any further postponement of this very important question.

Friday, June 2.

Thursday, June 8.

The Duke of Sussex presented a Petition from certain Roman Catholics in the county of Lancaster, which was read, and prayed for the complete abolition of all those disabilities under which the Roman Catholics laboured, without any condition or restriction. His Royal Highness stated, that as the Petition was couched in respectful language, he thought it his duty to present it, though he did not by any means pledge himself to support the prayer of it to the full extent Their Lordships would of course reserve it to themselves what it might be proper to do upon this subject, without considering himself limited to any particular terms or any specific

measure.

Earl Stanhope said, he should vote that this Petition be laid on the table, not only because it was couched in respectful and proper terms, but because he completely concurred in the prayer of it, being of opinion that every thing necessary for the enjoyment of the fullest religious liberty was a matter of right and justice, and not of grace and favour. The Petition was laid on the table.

Earl Grey said he was sorry to be under the necessity of moving, that the Order of the Day for suminoning their Lordships should be discharged, but his Noble Friend (the Earl of Donoughmore) who intended to have brought forward the Catholic Claims that evening, was unfortunately so ill that he was confined to his bed. He was extremely anxious, however, that Lord Donoughmore then presented the question should be discussed on to the House Catholic Petitions from the earliest open day. He would have the County and City of Cork, the named Tuesday for this debate, had it Counties of Galway and Roscommon, not been for one on the Naval Admi- and the County and City of Waterford, nistration, Thursday, therefore, was the last mentioned in the absence, the earliest day he could well name, from indisposition, of a Noble Duke and he moved that the Lords be sum-(the Duke of Devonshire); and two moned for that day; but in case his Petitions also from some of the CathoNoble Friend (Darnley) found it con- lics of England, one from those of venient to postpone his motion till the town and neighbourhood of ShefThursday, he wished it to be under-field, the other, a more general one,

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