individuals out of Parliament will ne- the privileges which we could give ver fail to be resisted. But whilst he them without danger to the Constitu could not disguise his conviction, that tion in Church or State. The Noble there had been on the part of the Peti- Lord had said a great deal about the tioners themselves more heat, and per- oath prescribed by that act, which he haps at times less of discretion, than described as full of abominations, and might have been wished, was there no- therefore paid him (Lord Buckingthing to be forgotten on the part of hamshire) the compliment of suppotheir Parliamentary advocates- no in- sing it to have been enacted against discreet zeal which, in pleading a just his consent; but he must beg leave cause, may have outstepped the bounds most distinctly to disclaim the comof prudence and of decorum-may pliment. The oath was framed upon have, perhaps, forgot for a moment a declaration made by the Catholics what was due to others and to our- themselves, and they proposed to selves. For himself he could affirm, give that security provided they were with sincerity and with truth, that he permitted to enjoy the privileges they had a feeling of just respect for the claimed. It should be remembered, Members of the House in which he also, that what they then claimed was had the honour to sit, and that if he much less than what they obtained.— had happened to have inflicted, in a But there was another oath, the Oath moment of perhaps intemperate zeal, of Supremacy, which it was necessary a wound upon any man in existence, the Catholics should take before they no person was capable of feeling for it could safely be admitted into the enmore sensibly than himself. The No-joyment of all those privileges for ble Earl concluded by moving, which the Noble Lord so strongly "That this House will immediately contended: foreign supremacy, howtake into its consideration the state of ever, was an immutable principle of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects the Catholic religion, and hence the of Great Britain and Ireland-with necessity of imposing that oath. reference to the laws, by which they With respect to the securities, if what still continue to be respectively af- the Catholics asked could be granted, fected." there would be no use for those securities. The idea of securities, connected with such privileges as were demanded by the Catholics, already appeared to him as great an inconsistency as strengthening the walls of a house in order to secure it against explosion from a mine. He did not think that any securities would lessen the danger, and especially when he remembered the sentiments expressed by the Catholic Bishops of Ireland, upon the provisions of the Bill that was brought in during the session of 1813. The union had also been alluded to by the Noble Lord, but certainly he never considered that legislative measure as one that pledged this country to a concession of all that the Catholics now claimed; if he had, he should have opposed it, as strongly as he had supported it. The only pledge which it contained was one of

The question having been put from the woolsack,

The Earl of Buckinghamshire said he should not feel it necessary to trespass long upon their Lordship's attention on the present occasion. The question before them had always resolved itself, in his mind, into two points, whether the legislature should go the length of granting complete Emancipation to the Catholics; or whether it should abide by the law as now existing. He was perfectly ready to concur with the Noble Lord in opinion, that the act of 1793 was where a stand ought to be made; because, by that act, every thing was given to the Catholics which they could enjoy under a Protestant Government, and every thing, indeed, that was essential to their prosperity; and, because the Catholics could enjoy all

conciliation, and he would put it to the candour of the Noble Lord, whether that pledge had not been amply redeemed. Upon the whole, he saw no sufficient ground for going into a committee at the present moment, and therefore he felt himself compelled to oppose the motion.

law of 1793, upon which his Noble Friend had said he meant to make his stand, he had always been of opinion that that law had been framed in a spirit of liberal conciliation, and with a determined desire on the part of the Government to extend to every class of the subjects of these realms a cerLord Grenville said, that his opi- tain portion of civil freedom; no one nions upon the subject of the Catholic took a more active part in that meaClaims were too well known, and had sure than the individual who had now been too often delivered before their the honour of addressing their Lordlordships to render it necessary for ships; and therefore he could not be him to travel over the same ground on suspected of a wish to deprecate its the present occasion. In the little value or character, when he said that that he should now say, therefore, in it rested upon a principle perfectly support of the vote he intended to give, anomalous. It rested on the avowed he should confine himself strictly to desire to give to the Roman Catholics whatever might be considered as new all that could be given them, consistmatter in the actual circumstances of ently with the state of the times, and the Catholics of Ireland, or in the when he recollected all the difficulties present times. His Noble Friend had of that situation, he had never seen distinctly disclaimed any connection any reason to feel other than unminbetween his motion and certain Reso- gled satisfaction at the part he bore in lutions which they had heard of in the success of the measure. But he another place, and he (Lord G.) did not then think, nor had he ever begged leave as distinctly and as po- since thought, that the subject was sitively to disclaim any similar con- closed, or that it rested upon any genection with respect to his vote that neral principles which would preclude night. As long as he had the honour any further consideration of it. of holding a seat in the British Parlia- if he had so thought, at that time, his ment, he should consider it his first opinion would necessarily have reand paramount duty to resist with ferred to Ireland as an independent firmness, nay, with indignation, any and separate country, and not to Ireattempt to dictate to the wisdom and land as she now happily was, forming discretion of the Legislature. (Hear, an integral part of the Empire. On hear!). Besides, those Resolutions those grounds, therefore, he conwent to an extent from which his mind ceived that the measure of 1793 was turned with abhorrence, that of shak- one which could not, by any possibiing the Protestant Establishments of lity, rest in its present situation. this country to their foundation; had a necessary tendency to force itand had they come before their lord- self upon the attention of the Legislaships in the shape, either as Resolu- ture, and it must infallibly produce tions, or as digested into a Bill, no dissertion and discontent, until Parconsideration upon earth should have liament consented to go into a Cominduced him to give them his support.mittee, and inquired into all the subIn voting, however, for the Commit-jects connected with that vast and imtee proposed by his Noble Friend, his object would be, what it always had been, to give the subject that grave and mature deliberation which he had long thought it necessary to give, and which every year had rendered more imperiously so. With respect to the

Even

It

portant question of Catholic concession, not shortly and unsatisfactory, by sweeping resolutions, but gravely and solemnly, as became the infinite importance of the measure. The longer that inquired was retarded, the more arduous, the more doubtful, and

the more difficult it would become.fordships do what was right, consult The question of securities, upon which the plain path of their duty, and prosomething had been said, would more vide for the happiness of the people.properly come under discussion in It was upon that view of the subject, that Committee, and therefore he and upon those principles that he had would not anticipate it now. He, for always supported the measure; and on one, would carry his mind into that the same principles, and on the same Committee unprejudiced by any thing view of what ought to be done, he that had passed, and would endeavour should now vote for the motion of his to view the matter as, in his opinion, Noble Friend. it must be viewed, not through the medium of any fixed or general principles, but in reference to the varying dispositions and tempers of the people of England and Ireland. He earnestly entreated their Lordships to lay entirely out of their minds all recollections of whatever had been improperly said or improperly done, by the Catholics themselves or their advisers.The measure, if successful, was to be adopted, not to gratify this or that individual, or any particular class of people, but to determine whether it could make more contented, more free, more happy, and therefore more happy because more free, a great body of our fellow citizens; they were to consider whether they could safely give that portion of civil freedom to the Catholics of Ireland, which hitherto it had been thought they could not; whether it was not the indispensible duty of the legislature not to rest upon general principles, upon dates and epochs, but to accompany the progress of light, of education, and of civilization in that country, deriving from them improved and increased means of diffusing happiness, and by extending happiness, securing in return attachment and fidelity to the welfare of the State. These were the grounds upon which the measure was to be deliberated, and therefore, even though he were convinced that a few angry individuals spoke the sense of the whole nation, and even if he believed that four or five millions of Catholics could be so unreasonable as to reject a boon and a benefit from the hands of the legislature, because not offered in the terms and in the manner they wished, he should still bid their

The Earl of Liverpool said, that his opinion upon this question was already known, and he assured their lordships that that opinion had not undergone any change whatever; but he did not think it necessary on this occasion to enter into the merits of that question. He opposed the motion before the House, because he did not conceive that the House could at present resolve into the proposed Committee with any view to a satisfactory result; but he had another objection to this motion, namely, that this was not a subject upon which any inquiry could be deemed necessary. For this was not a question involving any uncertainty as to facts upon which investigation was required. The House was already aware of all the advantages and all the inconveniencies belonging to the present system; for that system had been too frequently discussed to allow any ignorance or doubt to remain upon that subject. Whether, then, it was right or wrong to make the concessions required by the Catholics, the House was quite ripe to determine without any farther inquiry. That the concessions required would involve a considerable alteration in the Constitution of the country, could not be disputed, and he deprecated the idea of proposing that alteration— of sounding the alarm which such a proposition must produce, without any statement of the remedy meant to be applied. He agreed with the Noble Mover, that it would not be adviseable to excite any expectation which it was not intended to gratify. With regard to what had passed in Ireland upon this subject, he could not pretend to be as accurately informed as the

Noble Moyer; for he was not a mem- serve his observations for a future and ber of the Government at the period more convenient opportunity. He referred to by the Noble Lord. But was, however, on this occasion free their lordships had the record of what to say, that, as the Noble Mover adpassed in another place upon the dis-mitted, that the Crown was essenticussion of the Union, and upon refer-ally Protestant, and connected with ence to that record it would be seen, a Protestant ecclesiastical establishthat, according to the opinion of the ment, so in his (Lord Liverpool's) individual who took a lead in that dis-opinion should the Members of the cussion, the Catholic Question would Government and of the Parliament be be left open for the consideration of Protestant also. For the question Parliament, namely, that if the Union was, whether a Protestant Dynasty were adopted, Parliament would find and a Protestant Ecclesiastical Estait safer to concede to the wishes of the blishment should be supported by a Catholics, if it should think that con- Protestant Parliament and a Protescession expedient, or to resist such tant Administration. This appeared concession as it thought contrary. It to him substantially the question which would, indeed, be recollected, that their lordships were called upon to that point was peculiarly laboured by consider. Upon this point he, for the individual alluded to (Mr. Pitt, as one, had seen no ground to alter the we understood). From the discussion decision which he had already stated referred to then it could not be in- to their lordships; but it would be ferred that any pledge or promise was for the House to consider, in this case, held out to the Catholics by the pro- whether, under a Government which ceedings of Parliament. But without was not arbitary, which, on the conadverting further to those proceedings, trary, was limited by law, it would he felt it his duty to withstand the be wise to entrust the maintainance of present motion, because he was un- that Government, which was essen. willing to hold out any expectation to tially Protestant, to any other than the Catholic Body, which was likely Protestant Councils, whether it would to be disappointed; and he was the be safe to commit that Government to more disposed to resist this motion, the administration of Catholics. from the indefinite form in which it This was, indeed, the great question was presented to the House. He which he would not then argue in deshould, therefore, prefer the proposi- tail, but he felt it to be the real ques tion of some specific measure as in the tion for the consideration of Parliayear 1793, in order that the question ment. He was aware that many indimight be brought before the House in viduals, for whom he entertained the a distinct intelligible shape. On this utmost respect, were of opinion, that ground, then, he should frankly say, the Catholics might be conciliated that if he were even friendly to the while all ground of alarm would be Catholic Cause, he should object to removed from the mind of the Protes the course of proceeding proposed by tants through the establishment of the Noble Mover; for he should de- certain securities. But for himself, he sire to have at once laid before their was unable to comprehend how the lordships a precise statement of the securities proposed could serve to exenature and extent of the evil alleged cute their purposes. On the contrary; to exist, as well as of the nature and according to his judgment, it appeared extent of the remedy which it was impossible to cause any such securities proposed to substitute. Although he as should at once satisfy the Protestant had stated thus much, the Noble Lord and conciliate the Catholic. Such as said, that it was not his intention at should remove the jealousy of the one, present to enter at large into the merits and be agreeable to the feelings of the of this great question, but should re- other. Such, in a word, as should

form the basis of a legislative arrange- | Session. Being however friendly to the Catholics, as he had manifested by his vote upon a former occasion, he hoped that some legislative measure would be brought forward at an early period of the next Session, such as could be acceded to consistently with sound policy to all parties, and it should have his cordial support, for he was satisfied that things could not fairly remain as they were.