not the case, he thought it a great hardship that any doubt should prevail upon their liability to be taxed. Those chapels were extremely useful to the com faith; they were particularly necessary in large parishes, where, without their aid, a great portion of the inhabitants could have no means of being accommodated in places of religious worship; for instance, in St. Mary-le-bone, where there was a population of 70,000, and in St. Pancras, one of 60,000. Unless a measure of this kind were passed, explanatory of the law, in his opinion, an endless scene of petty litigation would be found to exist in bodies which otherwise would be at peace. he pleased, but that he must contribute his legal proportion towards the maintenance of the church established by law. The Bill before them went directly against this maxim, and claimed exclusive exemp-munity in the propagation of religious tion. Whatever spirit of conciliation was meant by its introduction, would, he was sure, be found as nugatory as it was unnecessary, from the circumstance of the non-existence of any division. It would be a mere peace-offering to carpenters, masons, and others, who, however useful in their proper stations, were certainly not entitled to any special grace; and the only effect it would produce was, to hold out an encouragement to commercial speculations in religion, which had, from their universality, become too conducive to purposes of fanaticism. Need he give any other proof of this species of mischief, than the profanation which was practised in private chapels by individuals, such as Joanna Southcott, and others. It was certainly one thing to avoid repressing superstition of this kind; but it was another to enable it, not only to pass without expense, but to throw the weight upon the shoulders of the people who happened to live in the same district. The right hon. and learned gentleman then stated the law upon the exemption of places of worship from parochial rates. This exemption was founded upon the principle, that they were not places of profit. He concluded by expressing his determination to take the sense of the House upon the Bill, and accordingly moved, That the Bill be read a third time this day three months. The Chancellor of the Exchequer never before heard the objections to this Bill propounded in so strong and eloquent a shape as they had just been, by his right hon. and learned friend. It had been argued, that if those chapels were exempt, an additional burthen would be imposed upon the other classes of the community. Now he denied that this would be the case; but even if it were, the House could easily suppose how insignificant the onus of that burthen would be, when he informed them that the amount of the chapel rate at present levied in London, did not exceed 4.; so that, instead of shifting the rate, it would remain where it already existed. He concurred in the principles of toleration, as laid down by his right hon. and learned friend; and he would also admit that whenever private chapels became convertible to purposes of profit, they were open to the assessment of rates. Where this was Mr. Bankes said, that if the whole rate of those chapels only amounted to 41., where was the necessity of this Bill of exemption? On what pretence ought a person who has no right to complain, to be relieved from any burthen, and to lay it on others? It was an injustice to persons who had come into a parish, under the idea that they had no other taxes to pay than those already established. A man who had built a chapel as a means of profit to be derived from some sort of religious worship, had no more right to be relieved from taxation than the owner of an auctionroom or any other place of business. He was not ashamed to say, that he would object to equalising every species of worship, and putting it upon a footing with that of the Established Church-a principle which had never yet been recognised. Mr. Butterworth regretted that the right hon. and learned gentleman opposite had indulged in the application of unmerited epithets to a set of men, who were every way as useful, enlightened, and loyal, as any in the Established Church. Sir W. Scott, across the table, disavowed any such imputations. Mr. Butterworth resumed, and said, the Bill had emanated from a spirit of conciliation; and he regretted that in its last stage, the right hon. gentleman 'should' have come down with the force of his opposition. Had he (Mr. B.) anticipated this, he would have been prepared to show, by the presentation of petitions, that numerous hardships and grievances did exist, which loudly called for redress. The late Mr. Perceval was of the same opinion, and at the moment of his lamented assassination, was contemplating a measure like the present, which he had only deferred until another matter of still greater importance, then pending, was decided by Parliament. As to the speculations of carpenters, masons, and others, he thought they would rather be found in the Church of England than among those societies in question; and he was also of opinion, that the right hon. gentleman might have spared casting the allusion of Joanna Southcott upon persons who despised such fanaticism as much as he did himself. It would be rather extraordinary, and not a little illiberal, if he (Mr. Butterworth) were to draw an argument against the Established Church, from the fact of one of its clergymen having been hanged at the Old Bailey; and yet, what difference would there be between the two observations? The hon. gentleman then explained the nature of those chapels for which exemption was claimed, the great benefits they conferred, and the education they distributed, and concluded by stating, that the most mischievous litigation would follow the rejection of this Bill. Sir W. Scott explained, and hoped that the hon. gentleman would not let his religious zeal get the better of his judgment. Sir J. Nicholl observed, that the case had already been submitted to legal adjudication. It had been adjudged, that all places set apart for religious worship, where no profits were made, were not rateable. It has also been adjudged, that places set apart for education, where profits were not made, were not rate able. As far, therefore, as respected both of those descriptions of property, the Act was quite unnecessary. When profits, however, were made by the letting out of pews, he could not see upon what principle such property was to be exempted from the common burthens. It was perfectly notorious that many buildings were erected for places of worship purely on speculation. It was equally notorious that many of these speculations turn out very profitable; and he could see no reason why, in that case, they should be exempt from the common burthens. He thought that it was straining the meaning of the word toleration' very far, to call it a persecution if they were not exempted. Mr. Wetherell thought that, upon the principle of the Bill, those chapels ought to be exempted from all other rates as well as parochial rates. He conceived that it was perfectly ridiculous to maintain the question on the ground of toleration. For whom was this toleration claimed? Was it for the plumbers, the masons, the carpenters, and the bricklayers, who subscribed labour in their different ways, for the purpose of building a chapel as a profitable speculation? The clergymen who preached in those chapels would not be a bit the better for the exemption contended for; neither would the people who attended the chapels be at all benefited. The advantages of the exemption would be confined to the speculators who built those chapels, as it would so far diminish their out-goings. At present, as the law now stood, this description of property was, like all others, subject to transfer and mortgages. The Court of Chancery, in many instances, sent in receivers to take the profit of the pews. He could, therefore, see no manner of reason why they should be exempted from the burthens that all other descriptions of property were subject to. Mr. Protheroe expressed his astonishment at the sudden and combined opposition now made to the measure. He thought the hon. general (Thornton) would have stood alone in his opposition to it. The explanations of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer were perfectly satisfactory to his mind, and he trusted the House would feel disposed to second his liberal and enlightened views. It should be recollected that the Dissenters contributed very much to the support of their own poor, which was a great relief to the parish rates. Mr. Serjeant Best denied that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been taken by surprise by himself and the other gentlemen who now opposed the Bill. He himself had declared that he would oppose it. He would protect the interests of dissenting ministers as readily as any man, but not at the expense of the ministers of the Established Church. The Bill was now so altered as to make it more objectionable in his mind than it was at first, by the total omission of whatever related to the Church. The clergymen of the Established Church would be liable to be rated for the rent of his pews, while the Dissenter, who had bis conventicle opposite, would be exempted. The opposition to the measure had been characterised as persecution. He was no advocate for persecution. If the clergy of the Established Church were exempted from parochial taxes, and the Dissenters made liable to them, he should say that this was persecution; but as the matter now stood, he could consider the Bill only as a sort of persecution against the Established Church. Where would the friends of this Bill find in any part of it a single clause which rendered such buildings as were erected for the direct purpose of profit liable to taxation? The measure exempted them altogether from every species of parochial tax. If a man avowed that he cared little about religion, and that he had built such a place for the positive purpose of lucre, where was the clause that made him liable to be taxed? This Bill was, in fact, drawing a pretty sort of contrast between the ministers of the Established Church and those of Dissenting Congregations; for whilst the Church of England was left to pay all the poor-rates, the other descriptions of worship were left free. The taxing of the Church was the taxing of its ministers. Why was not the letting of pews in chapels as much an object of taxation as any other object of profit? He wished the ministers of Dissenting Congregations to be supported better than they were, but he wished the Church ministers to be supported also, many of whose livings did not produce above 2001. a-year. What would be said, if those persons came to the House next year, and observed, "We are oppressed by taxes from which you have exempted the Methodists; excuse us now, as you have excused them!" The quantity of property to be exempted by this Bill, would make the burthens of others, already as much as they could bear, be in future far more than they could bear. The learned Serjeant then entered into a comparison between the profits gained by pew-letting in certain chapels, and the manner in which their exemption would operate on the parishes, and concluded with giving his decided opposition to the Bill. ever, which served as chapels of ease for the Established Church, ought to enjoy the benefit of this exemption, as should those Dissenting Chapels which were constructed solely with a view to the public worship of God; and it was impossible that the liberal part of the Protestant community would feel any jealousy against such exemption. But the principle of such exemption was already recognised by the Legislature, which released Dissenting Clergymen from serving in the Militia. Whatever the fate of the Bill might be, it was impossible to mistake the tolerant spirit of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with whom it originated, while the "toleration under certain limits," truly, of the gentlemen by whom it was opposed, was pretty much the same as that which might be professed by Ferdinand the 7th. With respect to the apprehension of the learned Serjeant, that the adoption of this Bill might create irritation, he rather thought that its rejection would not produce conciliation. It was notorious that Dissenters liberally contributed to the maintenance of the Lecturers of the Established Church-contributed, indeed, a hundred-fold more than the amount of pecuniary exemption which this Bill was calculated to produce: and would it then be wise to offend a body so liberal? Mr. Baring supported the Bill, observing, that as it provided that no Chapel should be entitled to the proposed exemption which did not afford one-fifth of its pews gratis, it followed, that no mercenary speculator could avail himself of it, because he must lose more in establishing his title than he could gain by the exemption from the poor-rates; therefore such speculators could not be profited by the measure, while its enactment would serve not only to recognise the great principle of toleration, but to prevent parochial Mr. W. Smith thought the character of animosities and bickerings in those places this, Bill had been materially over-stated; where Dissenting meeting-houses were estafor it did not appear a matter of much blished; and the number of such estaconsequence to the generality of the Dis-blishments was one of the best signs of the senters, whatever pecuniary interest might be felt in its adoption by the speculating proprietors who built chapels with a view to profit by letting out the seats. But the fact was, that many of these speculators, who were generally carpenters, bricklayers, and plumbers, were members of the Church of England, who erected cha- PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING pels from a motive which certainly did THE EMBODYING OF THE MILITIA.] Lord not entitle them to the proposed exemp- Castlereagh presented the following Mestion. The supplementary chapels, how-sage from the Prince Regent: times, for it proved the progressive advancement of religious worship. Upon a division the numbers were, for the Amendment, 41; Against it, 22. Majority 19 against the Bill, which of course was lost. "GEORGE, P. R. "The Prince Regent, acting in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, thinks proper to acquaint the House of Commons, that, in pursuance of an Act passed in this session of Parliament, to authorize, under present circumstances, the drawing out and embodying the British and Irish Militias, or any part thereof, it is the intention of his Royal Highness, at this important conjuncturé, to cause the said British and Irish Militias, or such parts thereof as he shall think necessary, to be drawn out and embodied, and to march as occasion shall require. " GEORGE, P.-R." Lord Castlereagh then moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, to return his Royal Highness the Thanks of this House for his most gracious Message, and to express the satisfaction afforded us by the information that it was the intention of his Royal Highness to cause the British and Irish Militias, or such parts thereof as his Royal Highness shall think necessary, to be called out and embodied at this important conjuncture." Sir John Newport doubted, whether it was usual for the House to vote an Ad dress, and express their approbation of the Message at the same time. It was proper that an opportunity should be afforded of examining into and deliberating on the subject of the Message, and as many hon. gentlemen were absent who might wish to deliver their opinions on the power to be exercised by the Crown, he hoped the noble lord would not call upon the House at present to express their approbation of the measure. Lord Castlereagh would have no hesitation in deferring the consideration of the subject, if there we really any point for deliberation. He thought it perfectly consistent, in communications of this nature to move an Address to the Crown, and to express the satisfaction of the House. The measure which the Crown was about to pursue was sanctioned by an Act of the House in the present session. The Speaker said, that cases of this description must be governed by their own particular circumstances. There was no rigid rule on such subjects, and they must be regulated just as honourable members might form their opinions. Sir John Newport would not have objected to a mere Address, but did not think it correct for the House, without any de liberation, to express their approbation of the manner in which a power given by Parliament was to be exercised by the Crown. Mr. W. Smith thought it very improper to take the House by surprise. It was extremely possible that some other minister might come down with an address in much stronger terms; and therefore the House ought not to consent to an immediate expression of their approbation. Many hon. members who generally delivered their opinion on this subject, might think it unnecessary to call out and embody any militia at this time. Mr. Baring was of opinion, that an answer to the Message ought not to be given instanter, because it came upon the House by surprise. If the precedent were now to be made, any minister might bring down a communication to a thin House, when it would be very improper to give an immediate answer. Lord Castlereagh contended, that it had been frequently the practice to return immediate addresses to communications from the Crown; and, considering the pressing exigency of the present moment, and that the power to be exercised was in pursuance of a Bill passed in the present session, he did not see any advantage to be gained by delay. The Address was then agreed to. MUTINY BILL.] On the motion for the third reading of the Mutiny Bill, Mr. Manners Sutton said, that general Cowell, the father of ensign Cowell, had this morning called upon him, in consequence of the statement which he had last night made with respect to ensign Cowell's case. A letter was written to him by general Torrens, respecting the propriety of examining soldiers and non-commissioned officers upon the Court-martial to try ensign Cowell, and in his answer he stated that if the evidence of those soldiers and non-commissioned officers referred to cases unconnected with the immediate subject of the Court-martial, such evi. dence would be clearly irrelevant, and that the examination of such witnesses, as to the character of an officer, would be a very novel proceeding, which required consideration. The Court-martial, however, decided against the admissibility of such witnesses. This statement he made for the satisfaction of general Cowell; and whenever he should happen, through inadvertency or misinformation, to make any statement in that House, which might happen to hurt the feelings of any one out of doors, he should be ready to correct it. Mr. W. Smith said, that he understood the object of examining the soldiers and non-commissioned officers on the trial of ensign Cowell was to prove the valour of that officer on an occasion which rendered that valour unquestionable, and such evidence appeared to be relevant and necessary upon a trial in which that officer's valour was called in question. Sir E. Brydges had the same understand ing upon the subject. The Bill was read a third time, and passed. IRISH BUDGET.] The House having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald (the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer) rose and spoke to the following effect: | been aggravated, my right hon. friend has sufficiently explained. The liquidation of the arrears of the late war, has, indeed, swelled that charge very considerably beyond the expenditure of any single year. It remains for me, however, to perform my duty. I trust that Ireland will not be found unequal to the difficulties of her situation; and if, in the extent and magnitude of her contribution to the general expenditure of the empire, the sacrifices she has been called upon to make are great, it must be remembered, that there are heavy burthens which have hitherto not been imposed on her, though every other part of the United Kingdom cheerfully endures them. Let us not forget, too, that great as the sacrifices may be for which we are called on now, or which may be required here. after, they are the price that Ireland pays for her peace and for her strength, for her security and for her glory. He The right hon. gentleman proceeded to state, that he should submit to the committee as distinctly as he could, the amount of the supply, and.e ways and means which he proposed to meet it, as well as the provision for the interest of that loan, which, conjointly with the British loan, had been contracted for in this country, and of which the terms had already received all the sanction which, up to this time, they could have received. should first state the estimated quota of contribution of the year 1815, at 10,574,215ł. The Interest and Sinking Fund on the present debt, 6,098,1491. making the total supplies 16,672,3641. The state of the Consolidated Fund was, balance in the Exchequer on the 5th January 1815, 1,689,2521., remaining of the Irish Loan of 1814, 322,500l.; remaining of the Loan raised in England in 1814, 3,852,3831. making a total of 5,864,165l. But from this he had to deduct, first, the arrears of contribution for 1813, 1,794,580, the same for 1814, 3,295,300l. exclusive of exceedings of Army Extraordinaries applicable to 1814, and supplied this year; there were also to be deducted the principal of Outstanding Treasury Bills and Lottery Prizes 282,2404. and for Votes of Parliament which remained undischarged, It is to-night, Sir, my duty to submit to this committee the amount of the Supply, which Ireland is required to provide for the service of this year, and the Ways and Means by which I propose to make the provision which is necessary; and I cannot lament that on more than one occasion in this House, and in another place, where an inquiry into the state of the finances of Ireland was gone into, the attention of gentlemen has been turned to the revenue of that country and the state of its resources; since so much of what else it would have been my duty to offer to the consideration of the committee, has been anticipated by those discussions. In the statement which I have to bring before you, it will be seen, that however the pressure of the present moment may be felt by England, however great and unexampled the demands on her may be, as represented by my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer of England on a former evening, I have, standing here on the part of Ireland, a duty comparatively more arduous to discharge. Ireland has been called upon, in the last two sessions of Parliament, to furnish a supply, and consequent ways and means larger than have ever been made before. Taxes have been laid on to an extent which that country, I fear, was little pre-appropriated to Inland Navigations and pared to expect; and we have now to provide still greater supplies, and by imposts exceeding those of the preceding years, great as were the exigencies of those times. How the present charge had Public Buildings in Ireland, 57,438. making the whole arrear due by the Consolidated Fund, 5,175,3581.; leaving a net surplus of the Consolidated Fund of Ireland on the 5th January last, of 688,8074 |