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the public use. He thought the whole thing a delusion upon the public, and on that account he would never support a tax to maintain it. He would admit that some means should be resorted to for liquidating the public debt, and in this he agreed with the hon. member for Leicester that a great sacrifice should be made; but he could not go with him in thinking, that that ought to be a property tax. That would be attended with the same bad effects as the other plan. He would, however, be satisfied to make a sacrifice; the sacrifice would be a temporary one, and with that view he would be willing to give up as large a share of his property as any other individual. [Hear.] By such means ought the evil of the national debt to be met. It was an evil which almost any sacrifice would not be too great to get rid of. It destroyed the equilibrium of prices, occasioned many persons to emigrate to other countries, in order to avoid the burthen of taxation which it entailed, and hung like a mill-stone round the exertion and industry of the country. He therefore never would give a vote in support of any tax which went to continue a sinking fund; for if that fund were to amount to 8 millions, ministers would on any emergency give the same account of it as they did at present. The delusion of it had been seen long ago by all those who were acquainted with the subject; and it would have been but fair and sound policy to have exposed it. On the subject of the loan he had nothing to object. He gave credit to and thanked the chancellor of the exchequer, for his good management within the last two or three days. [a laugh]. It was, he conceived creditable to him to have effected the loan on such good terms, when it was considered that only a few days back the funds were at 65. But though he gave credit to the right hon. gentleman for his plan in one respect, it was but fair to his hon. friend (Mr. Grenfell) near him, to say that this was the advice which he had given long ago. An hon. Bank director had said that he (Mr. R.) was inconsistent with his hon. friend. He was not bound to agree in every opinion which his hon. friend might hold; but he did not think he was so inconsistent as was said. He would admit, that he had complained of the Bank not having divided their profits. The Bank had made profits no doubt. It was the duty of the directors to do the best for the proprietors; and it was also

the duty of government to make as good a bargain for the country as they could. He could not approve of the Bank making presents to government, though he could not blame those to whom they were given, for making the most of their contracts with them.

Mr. Grenfell wished to know, whether the sinking fund hereafter was to be kept at work at its old nominal amount, or only to the amount of the real surplus of the revenue above the expenditure? He wished also to rebut the idea, that the appropriation of the sinking fund, as in the present year, which was authorized by Mr. Fox's clause, was any departure from faith to the creditor. The event mentioned by his hon. friend might illustrate this. When it was known that the sinking fund was so applied, the stocks rose from 65 to 69-a pretty clear proof that the stockholder did not consider it a detriment to his property.

Mr. Ricardo wished to ask, whether it was to be understood that in the next year, as there would be 11 millions to be raised for the service of the year, and five millions to be paid to the Bank, there would be taken, as in the present year, 12 millions from the sinking fund, leaving the rest to be raised by way of loan?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not wish to pledge himself as to the course to be taken in the next year; but so far as could be foreseen, 11 millions would be required for the supplies of the year, and 5 for the repayment to the Bank. It would then be in the power of parliament to take 12 millions from the sinking fund, leaving 4 millions to be raised by loan, or any other means.

The first Resolution was agreed to. On the third Resolution, that the usual sum be raised by lottery, a member said a few words, expressing a hope that the chancellor of the exchequer would not press this resolution. This expression was received with cheers from the opposition, and the Resolution being put, the committee divided: Ayes, 117; Noes, 49. List of the Minority.

Althorp, viscount
Anson, hon. G.
Bentinck, lord W.
Beaumont, T. W.
Baring, sir T.
Barnett, J.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Birch, J.

Calvert, C.
Calthorpe, hon, F.
Calcraft, John
Calvert, Nic.

Carhampton, earl of

Curwen, J. C.

Denman, Thos.
Duncannon, viset.

Evans, W.

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from all the gentlemen behind him, and others upon which he differed from all the gentlemen before him; while there were others upon which he differed perhaps from all the gentlemen in that House, as well as from every individual in the country. His opinions might be sneered at or condemned, but whatever opinion he conscientiously deemed to be correct, he would not hesitate to assert. He bad, then, no scruple to say, that he thought the present a very fit occasion for the im position of new taxes. The people had been very much amused and delighted by the events of the war; nay, they had been led to believe, that the war had contri. buted to improve the condition of their commerce and manufactures. Therefore, as the day of reckoning was now come, he wished so see such an effect from that reckoning, as should serve to guard the public mind against the mischievous impression, that war was a good and peace an evil. He was anxious, in fact, that the people should be sensible of the evils that followed from war, whatever might be its occasional triumphs or temporary advantages. As a friend to peace, he was desirous for such an impression, in order that the people might become uni

could not concur in the propriety of imposing these taxes, which bore exclusively on the poor, especially where the object was, to establish a sinking fund; for the establishment of such a fund, was meant merely for the benefit of the rich, and nothing could be more iniquitous than to tax the poor in order to secure the property of the rich.

Mr. Gooch said, it might, perhaps, seem very inconsistent in him, who voted on a former occasion for the financial resolutions of the right hon. gentleman, now to oppose one of the principal taxes suggested by him. Such, however, was his intention, and he should do so from this motive-that the landed interest of the country had a right to complain of the manner in which their grievances had been considered, and their petitions re-versally adverse to war. But, still, he ceived. They had been told, that their interests were sufficiently protected already by the Corn bill. But from that opinion he dissented entirely: the Corn bill was a dead letter in fact, and no protection whatever. The landed interest demanded only what every other body of men had-protection; a protection against the foreign farmer, who could afford to bring his corn to market at 40s. cheaper than they could. Not only was that corn bill no protection, but fresh taxes were now to be imposed upon them. The chancellor of the exchequer had told them, that this duty on malt would affect neither the land owner nor the consumer. But the fact was, that if it did not press upon the landholder, it necessarily would upon the poor, the great body of whom were supported by the poor-rates-another circumstance materially affecting the agricultural interest.

Mr. Buxton, after having ably vindicated the conduct of the brewers from the charges which, on former occasions, had been brought against them, observed, that he would now offer a few words on the proposed taxes. There were some points in the plan on which he differed (VOL. XL.)

Colonel Wodehouse disapproved of the proposed tax upon malt, not from any selfish consideration, but from a conviction of its general impolicy, and particularly of its tendency to discourage the growth of corn.

Mr. C. Calvert declared his impression that no taxes could be selected more likely to have an oppressive operation upon the lower orders than those proposed. There was, for instance, but comparatively little consumption of beer among the rich, and as to the tax upon tobacco, upon whom would that operate? The tax upon tea was also mentioned. He hoped, however, that the right hon. gentleman would not attempt to extend that tax to the lower priced teas, which formed such a material article of subsistence among the poorer classes. But the fact was, that (3 U)

out of the three millions of proposed taxation, no less than 2,400,000l. would be found to bear alone upon the poorer classes. Here the hon. member entered into a vindication of the conduct of the brewers, observing, that the price of beer was reduced upon the removal of the war tax upon malt, but that the brewers were under the necessity of raising the price again, from malt rising from 63s. to 95s. per quarter, and hops from 74. to 13 guineas per cwt.

Mr. Huskisson supported the proposed plan of taxation, and adverting to the statements of the hon. gentlemen who so warmly advocated the cause of the brewers as to the effect of competition among that body in reducing the price of beer, observed, that it appeared from those gentlemen that the competition alluded to was proposed at a private meeting of the competitors, to consult their common interest. The right hon. gentleman maintained that the interest of agriculture would not be affected by the tax upon malt, and that agriculture was amply protected by the act prohibiting the import of foreign corn, but under certain cir

cumstances.

Mr. George Lamb would oppose all the proposed taxes, as oppressive to the lower orders, though not in an equal degree. He had been alluded to as having put a question to the chancellor of the exchequer some time ago, as to his intentions about imposing a duty on malt. He had been induced to put that question, not by the brewers, not by dealers or publicans, but by a large class of his constituents, who were drinkers of beer, and who foolishly thought that a tax on it would raise the price of the article. The an swer was, that the chancellor had no intention of imposing new taxes, but it left an impression on his mind that if he did impose new taxes, a tax on malt would be one of the first. The chancellor of the exchequer had rested his opinion on the evidence of a gentleman before the brewers' committee, but it would require a great deal more than that evidence to convince him that we could tax an article without raising its price. Could the right hon. gentleman exert such influence over the brewers as would prevent them from throwing the tax on the consumer? He well remembered that when the war duty was abolished, they agreed that they would not reduce the price, but would improve the quality of the article. And

what security had the public, that although they might not increase the price, they would not now deteriorate the quality? He protested against all new taxes till every source of economy and retrenchment was exhausted.

Sir J. Sebright supported the taxes generally, but professed himself hostile to the tax on malt, as it affected agriculture.

Mr. Brougham said, that if he understood the chancellor of the exchequer rightly, the tax was to fall upon the brewers principally, and not upon the growers of those commodities which the brewers used. That tax amounted to more than 1,400,000l.; and yet this tax was not to cause any increase in the price of beer! The result of it was to be, that the price was neither to rise nor fall. The grower was not to suffer by it; the consumer was not to suffer by it; all the pressure was to fall upon the severe and rapacious brewer. The right hon. gentleman had brought forward and eulogized upon all occasions the testimony which had been given by Mr. Barclay. He had no intention to make any objection to those panegyrics, because he believed them to be perfectly well-founded. Indeed, he intended to allude to his evidence in support of the view which he himself was inclined to take of this subject: that gentleman, whom he was proud to call his friend, had said that the effect of this tax would oblige him to pay 45,000l. out of the flourishing concern over which he presided. If this were really the case, it would entirely absorb all the profits which he ought to derive from the talent and capital which he expended in his business. But did any man in his senses really believe that the whole of this expense would fall upon the brewer? The brewer would repay himself for the capital which he advanced, and the expense would thus fall upon the manufacturer in the first instance, though ultimately it would press most severely upon the grower of barley. One of the arguments which had been used by the chancellor of the exchequer was, that no relief had been obtained by the consumer, in consequence of the arrangements made in 1816, because the price of beer had not been reduced in value. That argument had been ably answered by an hon. friend of his, who had defended the profession to which he belonged, with a warmth of feeling that did him the highest honour. He had said that the price of beer would

vest.

Mr. Coke declared himself to be against all new taxes until an experiment had been made of what might be done by retrenchment. Besides, of all the taxes which could possibly have been devised, the malt tax was the most oppressive. He had no doubt that the government had received the memorial which had been sent from the county of Norfolk, complaining of the distress of the agriculturists; and yet with this memorial before them they had come forward with a new tax which would press most heavily upon his constituents. The government ought to lower and not increase this impost. In that case, the consumption of barley would be increased, and the interest of the agriculturist in consequence improved. He should oppose any tax upon wool, tea, coffee, &c.; but he should oppose with still greater vehemence so unjust and impolitic a tax as it was now proposed to lay upon malt.

have fallen still more considerably than it stitutional beverage of the country-beer, then did, had it not been for an unfortu-made of malt. Upon all these grounds, nate dispensation of Providence, which he must strenuously oppose, not merely followed close upon the arrangement to this tax, but all the others. They were which he had previously alluded: though all equally opposite to the principles of the duty of 16s. had been repealed by par- sound political economy, and were each liament, and though the brewers had at as injudicious as the malt tax. the same time made a reduction of 1s. 6d. in their beer, the badness of the subsequent harvest, and the high price of grain resulting from it, rendered the reduction of a very short duration. Though these causes had not ceased to operate, the chancellor of the exchequer thought that he could now lay a tax on malt without increasing the price of beer; he could not help denominating this scheme one of the most visionary which had ever entered into the brain of man. He would beg leave to tell him, that the fall in the price of beer had been owing to the taking off the malt war tax, and that the rise had been owing to the badness of the harHalf the malt tax duty was now to be reimposed; and yet they were to be told, that no diminution of the consumption of the article, and no rise in the price, were to occur in consequence of it. But how long would this be the case? till the present extraordinary importation of barley had ceased. The best method which he knew of protecting our agricultural interests, was not by levying a tax upon the grain of our own farmers; espe cially as it was a staple article in certain of our counties; and if it would not ruin, would cause embarrassment little short of ruin, to those who inhabited them. Surely barley was sufficiently taxed already. It now paid nine millions of taxes. this was the case, was the imposition of such a tax fair in point of justice, or politic in point of revenue? The chancellor of the exchequer had no pocket authority, which he might quote on all occasions, to prove that the tax on spirits would not raise the price of that article. He was glad of it, because it would be a great benefit to the community to raise the price of spirits by taxation, giving, however, such a time to the lower orders to be weaned from that pernicious beverage (to which, indeed, their late misery and distress might have addicted them), to such a height as would put it out of their power to purchase them. He did not say this with the intention of taking this money out of the pockets of the poor, but with the intention of making them return to the good, sound, wholesome, con

When

The committee then divided upon the malt resolution: Ayes, 198; Noes, 97: Majority, 101.

List of the Minority.

Allen, J. H.
Althorp, viscount
Anson, hon. G.
Buxton, T. F.
Barham, J. F.
Baring, sir T.
Barnett, J.
Becher, W. W.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Birch, J.
Brougham, H.
Calvert, N.
Calcraft, John
Calvert. C.

Cavendish, H.
Carter, John
Crickitt, R. A.
Coffin, sir I.
Coke, T. W.
Coke, T. W. jun.
Curwen, J. C.
Davies, T. H.
Duncannon, visct.
Denman, T.

Dundas, hon. L.
Dundas, hon. G.
Dundas, Thos.
Dundas, C.

Ebrington, visct.
Fellowes, hon. N.
Fellowes, W. H.
Fazakerley, Nic.

Fitzgerald, rt. hon. M.

Fitzgerald, lord W.

Gooch, T. S.

Graham, Sandford

Griffiths, J. W.

Gordon, Robt.

Guise, sir W.
Gurney, R. H.
Honywood, W. P.
Hume, Jos.
Hurst, R.

Hutchinson,hon. C.H.

King, sir J. D. Lamb, hon. G. Lambton, J. G. Latouche, Robert Lefevre, C. S. Lloyd, sir E. Lyttelton, hon. W. Maberly, John Maberly, W. L. Macleod, R. Milton, viset.

Martin, J.

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Two other divisions took place, upon motions made by Mr. Bennet, that the chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again; the numbers on the first were, Ayes, 57; Noes, 191. The numbers on the second were, Ayes, 40; Noes, 185. Mr. J. P. Grant warmly opposed the new taxes, as bearing with peculiar severity on the lower classes of the community. On the several resolutions respecting tea, tobacco, pepper, coffee, and British spirits, he proposed amendments, the object of which was, to confirm the existing duties. The amendments, after some discussion, were all negatived without a division; and the original resolutions were agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Thursday, June 10. MARQUIS CAMDEN'S TELLERSHIP BILL.] The Earl of Liverpool said, he should not think that he discharged his duty to the public, if he moved the second reading of this bill without saying a few words to call their lordships' attention to its nature. The office, their lordships knew, had been given to the father of the noble marquis, as a reward for eminent services he had performed to his country. Whether, in the exercise of the prerogative of the Crown the granting of such an office was the best way in which rewards for public services could be given, was not a question now to be discussed. Though at the time the grant was made, it could not have been contemplated that the emoluments would prove so great, it was unquestionable, that the noble mar

quis had a full right to all the income of the office, and all the contingent profits derivable from it. This was not the only sacrifice the noble marquis had made. He relinquished a considerable part of the emoluments from the year 1798 to the peace of Amiens. From the year 1813 to the conclusion of the late war, he made a further sacrifice, and the whole amount of the interests he had given up could not be less than 100,000l. On the present occasion he need not call to their lordships' recollection a sacrifice which had been made by another noble marquis (Buckingham) now no more; but it per haps was not known to all who heard him, that the noble marquis to whom he alluded had made application to have his office put on the footing of the regulated tellerships of the exchequer. He would not now enter into the circumstances which had prevented this arrangement from taking place. It was sufficient to state, that it was in the power of the Treasury to have accomplished it. The sacrifices made by the marquis of Buckingham amounted, however, to at least 42,000l.

The Marquis of Lansdowne concurred in opinion with the noble earl as to the right of the Crown to give the offices in question, and the right of the two noble marquisses to the full emoluments. This question was totally independent of the propriety of making such grants. He concurred, as he doubted not all their lordships did, in every sentiment that had been expressed in approbation of the conduct of the two noble persons alluded to. The bill was read a second time.

STATE OF THE NAVY.] The Earl of Darnley made some observations on the papers relative to the state of the navy which had been lately laid on the table. From the perusal of those papers, he admitted that in no former period of our naval history did the navy appear on the whole to have been in a state of greater efficiency in time of peace. He spoke strongly in approbation of the exertions of Mr. Seppings, whose improvements had been of great advantage. But, notwithstanding the praise which he thought generally due to the Admiralty, there were some particulars with respect to the state of the navy which he thought it right to notice, as they might be of importance in the case of the country being involved in a contest. He could not overlook the naval power of America, which the

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