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the public use. He thought the whole the duty of government to make as good thing a delusion upon the public, and on a bargain for the country as they could. that account he would never support a He could not approve of the Bank making tax to maintain it. He would admit that presents to government, though he could some means should be resorted to for not blame those to whom they were given, liquidating the public debt, and in this he for making the most of their contracts agreed with the hon. member for Leicester with them. that a great sacrifice should be made ; but Mr. Grenfell wished to know, whether he could not go with him in thinking, the sinking fund hereafter was to be that that ought to be a property tax. kept at work at its old nominal amount, That would be attended with the same or only to the amount of the real bad effects as the other plan. He would, surplus of the revenue above the exhowever, be satisfied to make a sacrifice ; penditure? He wished also to rebut the the sacrifice would be a temporary one, and idea, that the appropriation of the sinking with that view he would be willing to give fund, as in the present year, which was up as large a share of his property as any authorized by Mr. Fox's clause, was any other individual. [Hear.] By such means departure from faith to the creditor. The ought the evil of the national debt to be event mentioned by his hon. friend might met. It was an evil which almost any sa- illustrate this. When it was known that crifice would not be too great to get rid the sinking fund was so applied, the stocks of. It destroyed the equilibrium of rose from 65 to 69-a pretty clear proof prices, occasioned many persons to emi. that the stockholder did not consider it a grate to other countries, in order to avoid detriment to bis property. the burthen of taxation which it entailed, Mr. Ricardo wished to ask, whether it and hung like a mill-stone round the ex- was to be understood that in the next ertion and industry of the country. He year, as there would be 11 millions to be therefore never would give a vote in sup- raised for the service of the year, and five port of any tax which went to continue a millions to be paid to the Bank, there. sinking fund; for if that fund were to would be taken, as in the present year, amount to 8 millions, ministers would on 12 millions from the sinking fund, leaving any emergency give the same account of the rest to be raised by way. of loan ? it as they did at present. The delusion The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not of it had been seen long ago by all those wish to pledge himself as to the course to who were acquainted with the subject ; be taken in the next year; but so far as and it would have been but fair and sound could be foreseen, 11 millions would be policy to have exposed it. On the subject required for the supplies of the year, and of the loan he had nothing to object. He 5 for the repayment to the Bank. It gave credit to and thanked the chancellor would then be in the power of parliament of the exchequer, for his good manage to take 12 millions from the sinking fund, ment within the last two or three days. leaving 4 millions to be raised by loan, [a laugh]. It was, he conceived credit- or any other means. able to him to have effected the loan on The first Resolution was agreed to. On such good terms, when it was considered the third Resolution, that the usual sum that only a few days back the funds were be raised by lottery, a member said a at 65. But though he gave credit to the few words, expressing a hope that the right hon. gentleman for his plan in one chancellor of the exchequer would not respect, it was but fair to his hon. friend press this resolution. This expression (Mr. Grenfell) near him, to say that this was received with cheers from the oppowas the advice which he had given long sition, and the Resolution being put, the ago. An hon. Bank director had said committee divided : Ayes, 117; Noes, 49, that he (Mr. R.) was inconsistent with his hon. friend. He was not bound to
List of the Minority. agree in every opinion which his hon. Althorp, viscount Calvert, C. friend might hold; but he did not think Anson, hon. G. Calthorpe, hon, F.
Calcraft, John he was so inconsistent as was said. He Bentinck, lord W.
Calvert, Nic. would admit, that he had complained of Beaumont, T. W. the Bank not having divided their profits. Baring,'sir T.
Carhampton, earl of The Bank had made profits no doubt. It Barnett, J.
Curwen, J. C.
Denman, Thos. was the duty of the directors to do the Bennet, hon, H. G. Duncannon, visct. best for the proprietors; and it was also Birch, J.
Newman, R. W. from all the gentlemen behind him, and Grant, J.P. Newport, sir J.
others upon which he differed from all the Gordon, Robt. North, Dudley
gentlemen before him; while there were Graham, Sandford Osborne, lord F.
others upon which he differed perhaps Grenfell, Pascoe Parnell, sir H.
from all the gentlemen in that House, as Honywood, W.P. Pelham, hon. G. Hume, Jos.
Phillips, C. M. well as from every individual in the Hurst, Robt.
Rickford, Wm. country. His opinions might be sneered Hutchinson, bon.C.H. Ricardo, 'D.
at or condemned, but whatever opinion he Lubbock, sir John Ridley, sir M.W. conscientiously deemed to be correct, he Leake, Wm.. Tichfield, marq. would not hesitate to assert. He bad, Lamb, hon. G. Williams, w
then, no scruple to say, that he thought Lambton, J. G. Wilkins, Walter
the present a very fit occasion for the im. Lyttelton, hon. W.H. Wilson, sir R. Macleod, R.
position of new taxes. The people had Martin, John Brougham, Henry
been very much amused and delighted by Merest, J. D.
the events of the war ; nay, they had been
led to believe, that the war had contri. On the resolution for laying an excise buted to improve the condition of their duty of Is. upon every bushel of malt; commerce and manufactures. Therefore, and 1s. per pound on tobacco or snuff, the as the day of reckoning was now come, same not being Irish,
he wished so see such an effect from that Mr. Gooch said, it might, perhaps, seem reckoning, as should serve to guard the very inconsistent in him, who voted on a public mind against the 'mischievous imformer occasion for the financial resolu. pression, that war was a good and peace tions of the right hon. gentleman, now to an evil. He was anxious, in fact, that oppose one of the principal taxes sug- the people should be sensible of the gested by him. Such, however, was his evils that followed from war, whatever intention, and he should do so from this might be its occasional triumphs or teni. inotive-that the landed interest of the porary advantages. As a friend to peace, country had a right to complain of the he was desirous for such an impression, in manner in which their grievances had order that the people might become uni. been considered, and their petitions re- versally adverse to war. But, still, he ceived. They had been told, that their could not concur in the propriety of iminterests sufficiently protected posing these taxes, which bore exclusively already by the Corn bill. But from that on the poor, especially where the object opinion he dissented entirely: the Corn was, lo establish a sinking fund; for the bill was a dead letter in fact, and no pro- establishment of such a fund, was meant tection whatever. The landed interest de- merely for the benefit of the rich, and manded only whatevery other body of men nothing could be more iniquitous than to had-protection ; a protection against the tax the poor in order to secure the proforeign farmer, who could afford to bring perty of the rich. his corn to market at 40s. cheaper than Colonel Wodehouse disapproved of the they could.
Not only was that corn bill proposed tax upon malt, not from any no protection, but fresh taxes were now selfish consideration, but from a convicto be imposed upon them. The chan- tion of its general impolicy, and particucellor of the exchequer had told them, larly of its tendency to discourage the that this duty on malt would affect neither growth of corn. the land owner nor the consumer. But Mr. C. Calvert declared his impression the fact was, that if it did not press upon that no taxes could be selected more the landholder, it necessarily would upon likely to have an oppressive operation upon the poor, the great body of whom were the lower orders than those proposed. supported by the poor rates—another There was, for instance, but compara-; circumstance materially affecting the agri- tively little consumption of beer among cultural interest.
the rich, and as to the tax upon tobacco, Mr. Buxton, after having ably vindi- upon whom would that operate? The tax cated the conduct of the brewers from upon tea was also mentioned. He hoped, the charges which, on former occasions, however, that the right hon. gentleman had been brought against them, observed, would not attempt to extend that tax to that he would now offer a few words on the lower priced teas, which formed such the proposed taxes. There were some a material article of subsistence among points in the plan on which he differed the poorer classes. But the fact was, that (VOL. XL.)
out of the three millions of proposed tax. what security had the public, that although ation, no less than 2,400,0001. would be they might not increase the price, they found to bear alone upon the poorer would not now deteriorate the quality ? classes. Here the hon. member entered He protested against all new taxes till into a vindication of the conduct of the every source of economy and retrench. brewers, observing, that the price of ment was exhausted. beer was reduced upon the removal of Sir J. Sebright supported the taxes ge. the war tax upon malt, but that the nerally, but professed himself hostile to brewers were under the necessity of rais. the tax on malt, as it affected agriculture. ing the price again, from malt rising from Mr. Brougham said, that if he under635. to 958. per quarter, and hops from 77. stood the chancellor of the exchequer to 13 guineas per cwt.
rightly, the tax was to fall upon the Mr. Huskisson supported the proposed brewers principally, and not upon the plan of taxation, and adverting to the growers of those commodities which the statements of the hon. gentlemen who so brewers used. That tax amounted to more warmly advocated the cause of the brewers than 1,400,0001.; and yet this tax was not as to the effect of competition among that to cause any increase in the price of body in reducing the price of beer, ob- beer! The result of it was to be, that served, that it appeared from those gen- the price was neither to rise nor fall. The tlemen that the competition alluded to grower was not to suffer by it; the conwas proposed at a private meeting of the sumer was not to suffer by it; all the competitors, to consult their common in- pressure was to fall upon the severe and terest. The right hon. gentleman main- rapacious brewer. The right hon. gentletained that the interest of agriculture man had brought forward and eulogized would not be affected by the tax upon upon all occasions the testimony which malt, and that agriculture was amply pro- had been given by Mr. Barclay. He had tected by the act prohibiting the import no intention to make any objection to of foreign corn, but under certain cir- those panegyrics, because he believed cumstances.
them to be perfectly well-founded. In· Mr. George Lamb would oppose all the deed, he intended to allude to his eviproposed taxes, as oppressive to the lower dence in support of the view which he orders, though not in an equal degree. himself was inclined to take of this subHe had been alluded to as having put a ject : that gentleman, whom he was proud question to the chancellor of the exche- to call his friend, had said that the effect quer some time ago, as to his intentions of this tax would oblige him to pay about imposing a duty on malt. He had | 45,000l. out of the flourishing concern been induced to put that question, not by over which he presided. If this were the brewers, not by dealers or publicans, really the case, it would entirely absorb but by a large class of his constituents, all the profits which he ought to derive who were drinkers of beer, and who from the talent and capital which he exfoolishly thought that a tax on it would pended in his business. But did any man raise the price of the article. The an. in his senses really believe that the whole swer was, that the chancellor had no in- of this expense would fall tention of imposing new taxes, but it left brewer! The brewer would repay himan impression on his mind that if he did self for the capital which he advanced, impose new taxes, a tax on malt would and the expense would thus fall be one of the first. The chancellor of manufacturer in the first instance, though the exchequer had rested his opinion on ultimately it would press most severely the evidence of a gentleman before the upon the grower of barley. One of the brewers' committee, but it would require arguments which had been used by the a great deal more than thai evidence to chancellor of the exchequer was, that no convince him that we could tax an article relief had been obtained by the consumer, without raising its price. Could the right in consequence of the arrangements made hon. gentleman exert such influence over in 1816, because the price of beer had the brewers as would prevent them from not been reduced in value. That arguthrowing the tax on the consumer ? He ment had been ably answered by an hon. well remembered that when the war duty friend of his, who had defended the prowas abolished, they agreed that they fession to which he belonged, with a warmth would not reduce the price, but would of feeling that did him the bighest honour. improve the quality of the article. And He had said that the price of beer would
have fallen still more considerably than it fstitutional beverage of the country-beer, then did, had it not been for an unfortu- made of malt. Upon all these grounds, nate dispensation of Providence, which he must strenuously oppose, not merely followed close upon the arrangement to this tax, but all the others. They were which he had previously alluded : though all equally opposite to the principles of the duty of 168. had been repealed by par- sound political economy, and were each liament, and though the brewers had at as injudicious as the malt tax. the same time made a reduction of 1s. 6d. Mr. Coke declared himself to be against in their beer, the badness of the subse- all new taxes until an experiment had quent harvest, and the high price of grain been made of what might be done by reresulting from it, rendered the reduction trenchment. Besides, of all the taxes of a very short duration. Though these which could possibly have been devised, causes had not ceased to operate, the the malt tax was the most oppressive. He chancellor of the exchequer thought that had no doubt that the government had rehe could now lay a tax on malt without sceived the memorial which had been sent increasing the price of beer; he could from the county of Norfolk, complaining not help denominating this scheme one of the distress of the agriculturists; and of the most visionary which had ever yet with this memorial before them they entered into the brain of man. He would had come forward with a new tax which beg leave to tell him, that the fall in the would press most heavily upon his constiprice of beer had been owing to the taking tuents. The government ought to lower off the malt war tax, and that the rise and not increase this impost. In that case, had been owing to the badness of the hare the consumption of barley would be invest. Half the malt tax duty was now to creased, and the interest of the agriculbe reimposed ; and yet they were to be turist in consequence improved. He told, that no diminution of the consump should oppose any tax upon wool, tea, tion of the article, and no rise in the coffee, &c.; but he should oppose with price, were to occur in consequence of it. still greater vehemence so unjust and imBut how long would this be the case ? - politic a tax as it was now proposed to till the present extraordinary importation lay upon malt. of barley had ceased. The best method The committee then divided upon the which he knew of protecting our agricul. malt resolution ; Ayes, 198; Noes, 97: tural interests, was not by levying a tax Majority, 101. upon the grain of our own farmers ; espe. cially as it was a staple article in certain
List of the Minority. of our counties; and if it would not ruin, Allen, J. H.
Ebrington, visct. would cause embarrassment little short of Althorp, viscount Fcllowes, hon. N. ruin, to those who inhabited them. Surely Anson, hon. G. Fellowes, w.H.
Fazakerley, Nic. barley was sufficiently taxed already. It Buston, T. F. now paid nine millions of taxes. When
Barbam, J. F. Fitzgerald, nt. hon. M. this was the case, was the imposition of Barnett, J.
Baring, sir T. Fitzgerald, lord W. such a tax fair in point of justice, or po Becher, W.W.
Gooch, T. S.
Gordon, Robt. litic in point of revenue? The chancellor Bennet, hon. H. G. Graham, Sandford of the exchequer had no pocket authority, Birch, J.
Griffiths, J. W. which he might quote on all occasions, to Brougham, H. Guise, sir W. prove that the tax on spirits would not Calvert, N.
Gurney, R. II. raise the price of that article. He was
Calcraft, John Honywood, W. P. glad of it, because it would be a great Cavendish, H.
Hume, Jos. benefit to the community to raise the Carter, John
Hutchinson, hon.C.H. price of spirits by taxation, giving, how- Crickitt, R. A.
King, sir J. 'D. ever, such a time to the lower orders to Coffin, sir I.
Lamb, hon. G. be weaned from that pernicious beverage Coke, T. W.
Lambton, J.G. (to which, indeed, their late misery and Coke, T. W. jun. Latouche, Robert distress might have addicted them), to Curwen, J.C. Lefevre, C.S. such a height as would put it out of their Davies, T. H. Lloyd, sir E. power to purchase them. He did not say Duncannon, visct.
Lyttelton, hon. W. this with the intention of taking this Dundas, hon. L.
Maberly, John money out of the pockets of the poor, Dundas, hon. G.
Maberly, w. L.
Macleod, R. but with the intention of making them re. Dundas, Thos. Milton, viset. turn to the good, sound, wholesome, con- Dundas, c.
Merést, J, D. Ridley, sir M. W. quis had a full right to all the income of Mills, G.
Ramsden, J. C. the office, and all the contingent profits Monck, sir C. Robarts, A.
derivable from it. This was not the only Newman, R. W. Robarts, W.T.
sacrifice the noble marquis had made. Newton, W.
Rowley, sir W. Newport,rt. hon.sir J. Russell, R. G.
He relinquished a considerable part of the North, Dudley Rumbold, c.
emoluments from the year 1798 to the O'Callaghan, J. Sebright,'sir J.
peace of Amiens. From the year 1813 Osborne, lord F. Sumner, G. H.
to the conclusion of the late war, he made Pitt, W.P. Smith, W.
a further sacrifice, and the whole amount Portman, E. B. Smith, hon. R. of the interests he had given up could not Primrose, hon. F. Stewart, w.
be less than 100,0001. On the present Parnell, sir II. Stuart, lord J.
occasion he need not call to their lord. Pelham, hon. G. Wodehouse, E. ships' recollection a sacrifice which had Philips, G.
Webbe, Ed. Phillips, C. M. Wharton, J.
been made by another noble marquis Powlett, hon. W Wilkins, w.
(Buckingham) now no more; but it per. Prittie, hun. F. A. Wilson, sir R. haps was not known to all who heard him, Price, R. Wood, ald,
that the noble marquis to whom he alluded Pryse, Pryse
Waithman, Robt. had made application to have his office Rickford, Wm.
TELLER. put on the footing of the regulated tellerRicardo, D. Grant, J. P.
ships of the exchequer. He would not Two other divisions took place, upon
now enter into the circumstances which motions made by Mr. Bennet, that the had prevented this arrangement from chairman should report progress, and ask
taking place. It was sufficient to state, leave to sit again, the numbers on the that it was in the power of the Treasury first were, Ayes, 57; Noes, 191. The to have accomplished it. The sacrifices numbers on the second were, Ayes, 40; made by the marquis of Buckingham Noes, 185. Mr. J. P. Grant warmly op- amounted, however, to at least 42,0001. posed the new taxes, as bearing with pe
The Marquis of Lansdowne concurred culiar severity on the lower classes of the in opinion with the noble earl as to the community. 'On the several resolutions right of the Crown to give the offices in respecting tea, tobacco, pepper, coffee, question, and the right of the two noble and British spirits, he proposed amendmarquisses to the full emoluments. This ments, the object of which was, to con question was totally independent of the firm the existing duties. The amendments, propriety of making such grants. He after some discussion, were all negative concurred, as he doubted not all their without a division; and the original reso- lordships did, in every sentiment that had lutions were agreed to.
been expressed in approbation of the con-
The bill was read a second time.
STATE OF THE Navy.] The Earl of MARQUIS CAMDEN's TELLERSHIP Darnley made some observations on the Bill.] The Earl of Liverpool said, he papers relative to the state of the pavy should not think that he discharged his which had been lately laid on the table. duty to the public, if he moved the se- From the perusal of those papers, he ad. cond reading of this bill without saying mitted that in no former period of our a few words to call their lordships' atten- naval history did the navy appear on the tion to its nature. The office, their lord whole to have been in a state of greater ships knew, had been given to the father efficiency in time of peace. He spoke of the noble marquis, as a reward for strongly in approbation of the exertions eminent services he had performed to his of Mr. Seppings, whose improvements country. Whether, in the exercise of the had been of great advantage. But, note prerogative of the Crown the granting of withstanding the praise which he thought such an office was the best way in which generally due to the Admiralty, there rewards for public services could be given, were some particulars with respect to the was not a question now to be discussed. state of the navy which he thought it right Though at the time the grant was made, to notice, as they might be of importance it could not have been contemplated that in the case of the country being involved the emoluments would prove so great, it in a contest. He could not overlook was unquestionable, that the noble mar. the naval power of America, which the