then, silver had circulated with the gold, without driving it out. In the same manner, copper, on which there was a seignorage, had circulated without driving out any other coin. The noble lord could produce no instance of any other country on which the coinage was established on the system on which it stood in this. He had, therefore no point of comparison. One great advantage of the present system was, that it tended to counteract the effect of a fluctuating price of silver. The principle of the present system was, that one metal should be taken as the standard of value. The other coins had only reference to the gold as a means of expressing its fractional parts. The silver might with reference to the gold, be leather coin or counters. A sufficient check against any injurious effects from the state of the silver coinage existed in its limitation. It could only be coined by permission at the Mint, and was in its nature merely a set of counters provided by the government. The law by which not more than 40s. was a legal tender was a farther guard against any pernicious effect. When the investigation in which their lordships had been lately engaged began, the price of gold was 4. 5s. per ounce. It was now 31. 198. If the silver coin had the effect of driving the gold out of the country, how did it happen that it did not keep it out? From the fall of the price, it appeared that it had returned, in spite of the theory of the noble lord. The gold followed the course of exchange, which was effected by the state of the currency, in combination with the operations of trade. Upon the whole he did not see that any information calculated to assist their lordships in their deliberations could be obtained from the judges, and he should therefore give his negative to the

motion.

The question was put and negatived.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Tuesday, June 15.

COMPLAINT AGAINST "THE TIMES" NEWSPAPER.] On the motion of Mr. Wynn, the House proceeded to the order of the day for the attendance of C. Bell; and C. Bell being called in accordingly, the paper, intituled, "The Times," dated 9th June 1819, was shown to him, when he stated that he was the printer and publisher of the said paper, and that he had received the paragraph complained of

from John Payne Collier, and then he withdrew.

Mr. Collier was then called in and examined.

Mr. Speaker. Look at that paper, and say whether it is a correct copy of the manuscript which was given to the paper on that evening? I have no doubt that it is a correct one, as far as printing goes. Mr. Speaker. Who wrote that ?—I did. Were you the short-hand writer who took down the notes on that occasion? I was. I have been for some years in the habit of reporting the proceedings of this House, and have always endeavoured to be as accurate in their representation as I possibly could; but owing to the confusion and disorder which sometimes prevail in the gallery, it is not always possible to give with accuracy what occurs. With respect to that part of the debate of which complaint is now made from the number of persons passing and re-passing the seat which I occupied, it was out of my power to follow the hon. member (Mr. Hume) regularly through his observations. Anxious to collect what had occurred during the confusion to which I have alluded, I asked a stranger who was placed before me, and from him I received, if not in exact words, at least the point which I afterwards embodied in my report. As to any intention of misrepresenting what occurred, I totally disclaim it. This is the first time during the 10 years I have been engaged in reporting, that any objection has been made against any report that came from my hands.

Mr. Bathurst.-Arc the papers to which you have just alluded a transcript from your notes? They are from my shorthand notes: that is to say, as far as the confusion I have alluded to would permit-Have you the original notes from which you copied ?-I have not; and though I have used every diligence in looking for them this morning, I have not been able to find them; the reason, perhaps, will be explained by the circumstance, that being occupied in other pursuits, I often write upon the slips which I have used in taking my short-hand notes.

Do you take a speech of that length on slips?-I take my notes on slips of paper made up into the form of a book.

Mr. C. Harvey.-Did you take your notes so on that night?-I did: the usual practice is, with gentlemen who take notes, to write from them on small slips of paper, which, the moment they are finished, are

solution, the consequence of which must be, to commit the person who had offended. If after this resolution they could stop short at a reprimand, his objection to it would be removed. He was not indisposed to concur with the terms of it; but there was a difficulty which was presented by the strength of them, and which might perhaps be got over by adding words to the effect, that in consideration of the circumstances which had been stated, the House was induced to remain satisfied with a reprimand. Were it not for the circumstances of extenuation which had been brought to light, he should have joined in voting for the severest punishment which it was in their power to inflict.

Mr. Bathurst thought the hon. and learned gentleman right in his construction of the rule of proceeding, that the punishment should be commensurate with the terms of the resolution. The course proposed appeared to him to be that pointed out by the nature of the case, although the extent of the punishment might be matter of subsequent deliberation. Adverting to the evidence, some of the circumstances stated appeared to be somewhat singularly co-incident-that the passage in question should have been so imperfectly heard; that the witness should have adopted the rest on the representation of a mere stranger; that it should have been put so offensively; and that the name, with the addition of cheers, should have been inserted in a parenthesis. He thought that, under all these circumstances, the House could not do less than adopt the resolution. Another unfortunate incident was, the loss of the witness's notes, which it was extremely desirable to have had produced.

Mr. Philips observed, that he regarded the defence which had been made by the gentleman who had withdrawn from the bar as a most ingenuous, rather than as that ingenious one which the right hon. gentleman seemed to consider it. It had about it every natural indication of sincerity; and the statement which had been made bore with it all the appearance of truth. For himself he might observe, that having frequently observed the right hon. gentleman (Canning) prone to associate ludicrous images with subjects of distress [cries of No, no!] if, then, he was mistaken on this point, it was not surprising that the witness should also have been deceived. His whole deportment at the bar established the fact, that the mis1

representation in question had originated in error, and had not sprung from any motive in the least savouring of malignity. He himself was persuaded, that there had been no intention to misrepresent; and with this persuasion on his mind, he could not, as an honest man, vote that the paper was a scandalous and calumnious libel.

Lord Castlereagh said, that if the proper course of proceeding had not been before evident, the speech of the hon. gentleman was calculated to guide them to it. The hon. gentleman had made one more of those attempts that had of late been so frequent, to impute to his right hon. friend conduct and feelings of which he was incapable. If such imputations were followed up in the daily prints, he would leave it to the House to judge what must become of the privileges of parliament. He must deny that the question of intention was one to which the House was at all bound to advert; it was into the truth of the averments alone they ought to inquire; for it was obviously impossible to trace the actual motive operating upon a reporter's mind. If they found that the character and qualities ascribed to it did belong to the paper in question-that it did contain a false and calumnious account of what had taken place within the House; then, however the manner of the individual might have impressed them in his favour, it was their duty to mark their sense of it in distinct and unequivocal terms. With regard to the circumstance of the offensive passage being adopted on the suggestion of a stranger, he was not disposed to consider that this would furnish any excuse, even if the account were true beyond all doubt. The hon. and learned gentleman had admitted that he was ready to affirm the resolution, and was merely desirous that the consequences should not be pushed too far. But how would the House stand, if, after a resolution had been passed, declaring that a gross libel had been published on their proceedings, they should be satisfied with a mere reprimand, when the defence that induced them thus to mitigate their judgment could not appear on their Journals? After a commitment, the circumstances of extenuation or explanation might be set forth in a petition, and an opportunity be thus afforded for recording the grounds of that lenient consideration which the House might be disposed to entertain. But if they had any regard for their own

dignity or privileges, and unless they were willing to leave them entirely at the mercy of the reporters, they would, without bearing hard on the individual who was the subject of animadversion, and who ought not to have reported any matter on the idle suggestion of a stranger, deal with this case on public grounds alone. It was not a case which ought to be tampered with; and whether the of fence proceeded from inconsiderateness, or any other cause, that was a matter to be hereafter pleaded; but he felt himself bound to say, in the present state of the proceeding, the House could not, consistently with its privileges or dignity, receive any communication from the individual who had been examined, until he should be in custody.

Mr. Philips said, he had not meant to justify the publication, but to object to any terms in the resolution that should express or imply an intention on the part of the author to misrepresent. In his other observations he had been influenced by no wish to reflect on the right hon. gentleman.

Mr. Abercromby said, he had viewed the publication as one of a peculiarly aggravated nature: it contained an untrue account of what had been said, and was accompanied by a sort of scenic description which heightened its effect. He should vote for the resolution; but he thought the House would act wisely, in reserving to itself the consideration of the extent of punishment. But it was important that the grounds of their judgment, whatever it might be, should appear upon their Journals. The manner of the witness had made a general prepossession in his favour, and he could almost wish that the ianguage of the resolution was less strong. The witness had exposed himself to severe reproach, but his conduct that day at the bar recommended him to their most favourable consideration. He had incurred much blame in adopting the representation of a stranger, and this was in itself a great offence. At the same time, the manner in which the mis-statement was accounted for, satisfied him of its sincerity. With regard to the character of the newspaper in question, he thought it much improved upon the judgment which he was the day before inclined to form of it. It clearly appeared that the report had passed through no intermediate hands, but without being seen by any other person, had passed with the utmost rapidity (VOL. XL. )

from the writer to the publisher. It had been truly added, that there was no time for deliberation; and it was certainly difficult to believe that the witness could have come into the gallery with malice prepense, or a determination to publish something offensive to the right hon. gentleman. He conceived, therefore, that whilst some punishment was necessary, the House would do itself honour in rendering it as mild and of as short duration as possible.

Lord Compton observed, that in 1812 a gross misrepresentation had been made of a statement respecting a piece of very remarkable evidence before a committee, which had been submitted by the hon. member for Winchelsea. The evidence was of such a nature that it had been struck out of the minutes of the committee, but had been read in the House by the hon. member. It was represented in the newspaper that this evidence had been given by another hon. member; and although the hon. member for Sandwich declared that, living in the neighbourhood of a manufacturing district, his life might be endangered by its publication, the editor thought proper to publish it, and notwithstanding this double falsehood, had not been punished by the House. He thought this a much stronger case than the present, and as the author of that publication had been suffered to escape, it would not be fair to adopt strong measures in a case in which the error was confessed, and the cause of it explained.

Mr. Protheroe was sure that the House would appreciate the delicacy of those feelings which had induced the right hon. gentleman to absent himself on this occasion. He was also sure that if he had been present he would have been deeply impressed by the explanation that had been given. That right hon. gentleman had observed, that if any member could lay his hand upon his heart, and state that he did not believe the paragraph in question to have originated in motives of malignity, he would take no further notice of the business. He believed that many hon. members, after the evidence which they had heard, were prepared to express their belief that there had been no malignity. There was one point to which he wished for a moment to call their attention; it related to a smile, which had been described as pervading the Treasury bench. In the statement of the hon. gen tleman himself (Mr. Ilume) all reference (4 F)

House, and for the public, if some further accommodation were furnished to the persons, who, notwithstanding the difficulties in which they were placed, already performed with no small diligence and ability the task of communicating to the country what was said and done in parliament. Whatever additional advantages they enjoyed would be accompanied by a proportionate responsibility.

Mr. Hutchinson said, the last two speeches would be sufficient to guide his vote, if it had not been previously determined on the same side. He, for one, was ready without hesitation to state upon his honour that he believed the witness had not been influenced by the malignant feeling, or desire, to insult the right hon. gentleman. He did not mean to justify the report, and was persuaded the day before that it was a calumnious Jibel. The hon. mover would hardly have offered so strong a resolution to the House, if he had drawn it up after he had heard what had been stated at the bar. Anxious as he was to support the privileges of the House, he should be sorry to do so by an act of oppression. He should willingly vote that the publication was an unjustifiable breach of privilege; but as he could not keep intention out of his view, and as an unqualified apology had been made, he could not join in any vote, the almost necessary consequence of which would be a commitment to Newgate.

Mr. Brand observed, that if the present motion had been to be decided merely upon what had passed on the preceding day, he should have willingly acquiesced in it; but after the explanations which had been given, he did not apprehend that any member, viewing the subject as qualified by those explanations, could avoid coming to a different conclusion. A clear statement, a manly apology, had been made. He could not exclude from his consideration the point of intention, even although the consequence might be, that the reasons of this proceeding would not appear upon their Journals. It

Mr. Wynn said, that the first part of his resolution was, that the words were a scandalous misrepresentation of the debates and proceedings of that House. Was there any man who could read an account of what was said to have passed, as reported in that paper, and contrast it with the account of what did really pass, as given by the hon. member, and not say that this was a most gross and scandalous misrepresentation? He referred particularly to that part about which he had heard no explanation-he meant the " continued cheers." Now, that was a circumstance which the reporter could not possibly mistake. The second part of the resolution was, that this was a calumnious libel on one of the members of that House. Now, if the passage did not amount to a calumnious libel on the right hon. gentleman, he did not know what was a calumnious libel. The concluding allegation was, that this was an aggravated breach of privilege. Now, when it was considered that the taking any report of their proceedings was a breach of privilege, he did not think that to the present case he could apply a slighter expression. The resolution was agreed to.

Mr. Wynn said it now became his duty to follow up the measure which the House had just agreed to. It was necessary that some punishment should be inflicted upon the individual who had been guilty of so great a breach of privilege. At the same time, he wished to take into consideration every circumstance which could be taken to be in extenuation. He did not repent their having listened to those observations which they had just heard, because he did think this that reasonable course, which not mercy alone but justice called for. When an individual came before them to speak to a subject of this nature, he should be permitted to state any circumstance which could go in extenuation. He well knew that it was impossible to give the exact expression of any man, but he could not conceive how it was