ant on which he supposed the hon. gentleman opposite had no objection. It was, in his opinion, the duty of the House to go into a committee on the bill as a declaration of general law; and it would then be for the hon. gentleman to point out what he thought ought to be the exceptions. Mr. Courtenay said, that if the Bill was to pass, they were to assume a defect existing in the law, which it was not at all clear was so. At common law, occasionality, if made out, was decisive against the right of voting. His objection was, that that being so, it was not prudent to introduce a doubt respecting it, and, by a side-wind, to make a material alteration in the existing law regarding the exercise of the elective franchise. The bill enacted, that a person claiming to vote in right of a freehold should not be permitted to do so, unless he made a declaration, that he had been in possession a certain time before. He objected to that enactment, because he thought it was law already. The question was, was it prudent to make that law in the case of burgage tenure, which was law in the case of freehold? He thought the Bill unnecessary. When it was said that occasionality was against the general law of the land, he was aware, it might be urged, that that was not so, as the legislature had, at no very distant period, interfered, and enacted laws against it. But all the legislature did was, to explain the law, and supply certain deficiencies. Voting on burgage tenure property, in the mode referred to, had been so long acquiesced in, that it now formed a part of the law of the land. The learned member then moved, as an amendment, "That the bill be read a second time this day six months." Mr. Serjeant Onslow maintained, that the learned mover of the amendment had been inconsistent with himself, having first argued that the bill was unnecessary, and then admitted that parts of it might be made the subject of a separate measure. He would support the bill, on the ground that it only called on the voters to give certain criteria, in order to afford the means of ascertaining whether or not the general principle of the law against occasionality had been violated. The question being put, "That the bill be now read a second time," the House divided: Ayes 46. Noes 127. The second reading of the bill was then put off for six months. NEW POST OFFICE.] On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply, Mr. R. Gordon desired, before the Speaker left the chair, to put a few questions to an hon. friend of his opposite, relative to the New Post Office. There had been already expended, in preparing the site of that edifice, the sum of 238,000l. -a sum of such magnitude, that during the last parliament he had called the attion of the House, or if not of the House, at least of the country, to it. This scheme, which, on its first agitation, had been a mighty favourite with the hon. secretary of the treasury, though he had now perhaps repented of it, had been originally brought forward in the year 1814, just one year before the system of economy commenced. The questions which he wished to ask, referred to the manner in which the 238,000/. had been expended for the ornament, accommodation, and convenience of the city, and the estimate of the expenses which were hereafter to be incurred. He had heard that the city of London was to pay one-third of the whole expense; but that was totally impossible. The only way in which they could attempt to do it, would be by the duties on coal and on wines, or by taking from the Orphan fund. That plan, however, would also be insufficient; so that he had no doubt that not merely the sum of 238,000l. already expended, but also 158,000l. which he heard was to be expended, would come out of the pockets of the people. He would also call the attention of the House to the manner in which the edifice had been ordered to be constructed. The secretary of the treasury and the chancellor of the exchequer had assured the House, on proposing the measure to its notice, that there should be a fair competition among architects for its plan; that there should be no favoritism, no partiality in the selection of the plan; in short, that there should be no job in the execution of it. In addition to this assurance, there was the report of one of their own committee containing a similar declaration. Such were the declarations of the first advisers of this scheme; and he therefore thought, that he was only seconding their intentions in preventing the erection of this new building from degenerating into a job. Now, he had heard that the architect of the post-office had sent in a plan to the secretary of the treasury, and that the secretary of the treasury had transmitted it for their approval to the commissioners | From this diminution of numbers the of the board of works. He did not say House might be led to expect a considerthat this was fact, but he wished to know able diminution of expense; but the whether the competition of architects was House would recollect, that the expense of the troops employed in France was no longer to be allowed. chiefly defrayed out of the contributions received from France; and that on their return to this country, after the allied troops had withdrawn from France, the pensions and half-pay of the officers necessarily became a burthen on this country. Mr. Lushington stated, that until all the buildings were pulled down on which the new post-office was to be erected, it was quite useless to take any plan into consideration. Preparatory steps had lately been taken to promote a competition of architects. When it was recol lected that 7 or 800 individuals were to be accommodated in the new office, the selection of a plan ought not to be made in a hasty manner. He could inform his hon. friend, that what he had chosen to denominate a job, would be not more an ornament than an accommodation to the city. Mr. Alderman Wood observed, that whatever money might be wanted for the new post-office, ought very properly to be defrayed by the public, as it was an absolute convenience for the carrying on of business. The city of London would pay 10,500l. a year towards this expense as long as the orphan duty remained. Sir J. Newport said, the best mode of producing a good plan would be by exciting a free and fair competition of artists. Mr. Lushington had no hesitation in promising that that would be done. He should state to the committee the amount of the increase and decrease in the estimates of the ordinary services of the army in the pre sent year compared with the last:-The increase in 1819 amounted to 362,1947. 7s. 9d. The decrease to 273,3591. 9s. 4d. Leaving an increase for 1819 of 88,834/. 188. 5d. In point of fact, however, there In the was only an increase of 58,000l. charge of the present year there was included 203,254/. 11s. the charge for the reductions of the regiments intended to be disbanded in the course of the year. The whole of this charge, however, was not of a temporary nature, for a part of it would continue after the reductions had taken place. After allowing, however, 58,000l. for half-pay and Chelsea pensions, the remainder would be a saving to the country; and it was to be recollected that this sum of 58,000l., the amount of the pay and pensions for the present year, would merge progressively into the reductions. If we looked at the whole expense of the establishments inLord Palmerston said, in rising to move cluded in the estimates, and those inthe Army Estimates for the present year, cluded in the estimates of last year, he should not trespass long on the atten- there would be found a decrease of 763,000l. army tion of the House. The report of the But this of course included the committee of finance on this subject was France and the army in India, which so full, and so minute in its details, as to could be considered a saving to this coun, leave very little to state by the person try. But then it was proper to view this, who brought forward the estimates. not merely with reference to the expense, Upon a general view of the numbers of but also with a view to the diminution of the army for the present year, as com- the patronage and influence of the Crown; pared with the number of men voted last and in this point of view a reduction of year taking, in the first instance, the per-763,000l. from our expenditure was of It was manent establishments of the two years, very considerable importance. and leaving out the troops in India and in not necessary for him to go minutely into France, there would be found a diminu- the causes and amount of the differences tion of 9,800 or in round numbers of between the ordinary services of the 10,000 men. Upon a general view of the army in 1818 and 1819, as a very full whole of the estimates of last year and the statement on this subject, would be found present year, there appeared to be a di- in an appendix to the report of the fi In the first class, minution in the present year of 26,042 nance committee. This was the amount of the reduc- which comprised the whole of the active tion of force which had actually been and effective army of the country, the effected since the estimate of last year. land forces, the staff, the public depart ARMY ESTIMATES.] The House having gone into a Committee of Supply, men. in ments, medicines, and yeomanry corps. necessary for him, to enter into any parIn this first class there was a decrease of ticulars now. The expense of the troops 272,000l., as compared with last year. in India, as the House knew, were charged On the land forces there was a decrease on the India company; for though it was of 263,000l. produced by the reduction charged in the first instance on this counof 9,800 men. On the staff there was an try, it was ultimately paid by the East increase of 2,2361. But it was proper to India company. In the third class, which state, that this increase did not arise from comprised the half-pay, pensions, &c. that part of the staff called the military; there was a considerable increase. In the for there was one general officer less this military college, one of the heads, there year than in the last. The increase arose was a diminution of 3401. In the item in the medical staff. When government of garrisons there was an increase, as first revised the medical staff some years compared with last year, of 2591. In the ago, it was but justice to state, that the article of pay for retired officers and unreductions ordered on the medical staff, attached officers there was a decrease of appeared to the head of the medical de- 5,371. In the charge for half-pay and partment greater than he thought neces- military allowances to reduced officers, sary. But it was thought advisable by there was an increase of 87,3981. This the government to carry the reductions increase arose from the reductions which into effect, and to leave it to the com- had taken place. In the half-pay of the manding officers of the different stations foreign corps however, there was a dimito ask for an augmentation if it should nution of 6,635. In the charges for be found necessary. Accordingly, various Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals there representations_had been made by the was an increase of 121,825. But this commanding officers on foreign stations, sum could not properly be considered all in consequence of which augmentations increase; for 30,000l. was taken in 1818 had been ordered, which occasioned the from the unclaimed shares of prize money, increase of 2,2361. In the allowance to in aid of the charge of out-pensioners, the principal officers of the several public and none was taken in the present year; departments there was an increase of and 14,2571. 18s. was taken last year from 40041. But this increase arose chiefly the poundage on out-pensions, making tofrom 1000l. for clerks employed in conse- gether 44,000l.; so that the real increase quence of a temporary pressure of busi- was only 77,000l. In the military asylum ness, and from additions of 8211. 5s. 6d. there was an increase of 3,631.; but this the grant of allowances to the deputy arose entirely from the increase in the paymasters lately employed with the army price of provisions which were supplied in France, on the disbanding of that army. by contract. In the widows' pensions The increase of 40044. might be said to there was an increase of 5,2471. consist of three branches. First, tem- the compassionate list there was an inporary charges; secondly, half-pay increase of 6,726. In the superannuation consequence of reductions; and thirdly, allowances there was an increase of 2,965ł. the transfer from the extraordinaries of arising from the reductions which had 1,700. the charge of the military branch been in the establishments in the com⚫ of the public departments in Ireland. mencement of the year. It might be saUnder the head of medicines, there was a tisfactory to the House, on stating this diminution of 8,600. This was occa- increase, to know what had been the efsioned by the return of the army from fect of the reductions which had taken France, by which the medical stores of place in the official establishments in the that army were made available. On the years 1816, 17, 18, and 19.-The reducvolunteer corps there was a diminution tions, on the whole, were 24,954l. from of 1,8721. This arose from the diminu- which the retired allowances fell to be tion in the charge for the Irish volunteers; deducted, leaving a saving of 11,2621. for, in the English establishment, there There was this farther consideration, that was a small increase, in consequence of the appointments having been abolished, the augmentation voted last year to the the remaining expense would only contiyeomanry cavalry of this country. Tak nue during the life of the persons enjoying together the various sums of increase ing the allowances. He wished, before and decrease, there remained a diminu- proposing any resolution to the House, to tion on the first class of 272,000l. With draw their attention to that part of the respect to the second class, it was not Report of the Committee which related to + In should merely observe, that the saving might be effected by reducing two regiments of cavalry and a certain number of regiments of infantry, and retaining the reduced troops in the other regiments. By reducing three regiments of cavalry, without affecting their effective force, a saving of 50,000l. would be produced. By the reduction of 15 battalions of infan try, a saving of 90,000l. might be effected. He should not now take the sense of the House on the subject; but when the report was brought up, he should move, that 120,000l. less than the sum tben mentioned be granted. He could not help expressing his astonishment at the increase of the staff, and particularly when he compared the staff of Ireland with that of this country. In England, Scotland, Guernsey, and Jersey, there were seven general officers, exclusive of the commander in chief, and the heads of departments. In Ireland, there were no fewer than eleven general officers. The smaller staff was attached to the larger force. In this country there were 25,000 men, while in Ireland there were only between 17 and 18,000. He really did not see what call the proportions between the charges for Colonel Davies conceived that a saving might be effected in the estimates of 120,000l. It was not his intention to enter into any detail on the subject now; he He The detection of smugglers was not a duty on which general officers could be employed. With respect to the military college, as far as he knew, it was of very little use. himself was at the military college before he entered the army. We were then at war, and there was a constant drain from it for the army. Then, however, the number of cadets were only about 200, whereas now there were upwards of 300. What necessity was there for such a number of cadets, when there were so many officers on half pay who had a claim to be restored to the service before the reception of a single cadet? These young men were kept there at a considerable expense to themselves. It seemed to him as if а pretence only was wanted for keeping up this enormous establishment. He should not, however, enter farther into the subject at present, but when the report was brought up he should show how the saving of 120,000l. might be made, and propose a deduction to that amount from the estimates. Mr. Hume said, that the objections he had to make on the present occasion to some parts of the military estimates, would not, he hoped, be considered as in any way reflecting on the army. No man in the House was more sensible of the merit of of the army, and of their gallant and glo- | called for from the public offices, and which rious exertions to place this country in any accountant might have easily prethe high and commanding position in pared. The comparison of the establishwhich it now stood. It had defended our ment, and expense of the present year had rights in the most perilous times, and been made as between those of 1817 and raised the glory of the country in an un- 1818, and in some of the establishments exampled degree; but, on the present oc- between those of the year 1814, a year casion, he had a duty to perform, as a the greatest exertions this or any country member of the House, which was para had ever made in war, and which he mount to every other, to endeavour to believed could ever again be equalled. lessen, if possible, all unnecessary ex- He had expected, that the Committee, in penses to the nation in its present condi- considering a proper military establishtion. He thought, that, after the ex- ment for the fourth year of peace, would emplary patience with which the people have had reference to the peace establishof this country had borne the great ex- ment of 1792, and not to a comparison penses of a long-continued war, they had with the estimates of 1814, or 1818. He a right, now that we were at peace, to was well aware, that we could scarcely expect such a reduction of the expences, expect to return to the military establishas could be made without diminishing the ment of 1792, but he had no hesitation in force actually necessary for the safety and saying, that we ought to approximate as protection of the state. He was not one near to it as possible, as the finance comof those who thought a standing army mittee of 1817 had recommended. The should be entirely disbanded in time of finance committee of the year in their repeace; but he considered it important, port state, that they avoid giving any opithat it should be as small as possible, and nion upon the numerical amount of the regulated only by the exigency of the army, for the reasons given in the times, not by comparison with times of report upon the army estimates in 1817; war, and of extraordinary exertions. As and it was somewhat curious, on reto the numerical force proposed to be ference to that report, to find that that kept up, he thought it too great, but he committee recommends an approximashould not offer any opinion as to what tion to the military establishments of ought to be the exact number. He thought, 1792, as absolutely necessary for the welthat in considering the number, reference fare of the country in the following words: should be had to the amount of former" Your committee, in making reference peace establishments, to the circumstances in which the world is placed as to the distant prospect of war, and not by comparison with what force had been maintained during the three past years; and he must say that in the present state of the country 3,503,3371. appeared to be a large sum for the efficient troops of a peace establishment. Highly as he respected the noble lord, the chairman of the finance committee which had laid a report on the estimates of the army for this year on the table of the House, he could not agree with the noble secretary at war, in the eulogium passed on the noble lord and on the labours of the committee on this occasion. He had to offer an opinion, certainly with great diffidence, but he believed that it was an opinion very generally adopted, that the finance committee had not on the present occasion fulfilled the expectations which were entertained of it. Their report on the table, as far as he could judge, was only a compilation and comparison of returns and accounts, which had been laid before the House, as (VOL. XL.) to the year 1792, desire to call the notice of the House to the low establishments of the latter part of that year, which was deemed sufficient for all national purposes at that time in the contemplation of a long continuance of peace; and although many circumstances are materially changed by events which have subsequently taken place, so as to prevent any exact parallel from being drawn between the two cases, especially in the amount of pecuniary charge, yet they submit, that as near an approximation to the low scale of establishment and expense, as may be found consistent with our more extended possessions, and with the augmented rates of various fixed disbursements, would be highly advantageous in relieving the burthens, and in supporting the public credit of the country." He could not avoid observing, that the suggestions of the committee of 1817 had not been attended to by the finance committee of this year in any one particular of the estimates, although they had referred to their report as an authority. He begged also to ob(R) |
