serve, that by the orders of this House to the finance committee, they were to consider and report "What farther measures may be adopted for the relief of the country from any part of the said expenditure, without detriment to the public interest;" but in the whole of the report which the noble secretary at war had eulogized, there were no measures of that nature pointed out. He should only observe, that their report afforded a me. lancholy prospect to the country, if there was to be no relief from the burthen of taxation, necessarily heavy in war, but which should be lessened by retrenchment and economy, during the opportunity afforded by the return of peace. The noble lord stated a reduction in the amount of several items of the estimates as compared with those of last year, but there was also an increase in other items which rendered the total expense of this year greater than that of last year by 88,512.! This committee had to consider the total amount which the nation had to pay; and it appeared that no reduction had been made in the military expenditure in this year, as compared with 1818 and it was, therefore, a question as to the credit for economy which was due to government for their exertions. It was, indeed, a fact worthy the most serious attention of the committee, that, by the estimate of the finance committee, the expenditure for 1820 would be, within a few hundreds, the same as for the past year. In 1818 the amount was 6,494,2901.; in 1819 the estimate is 6,582,8021.; for 1820, the estimate is 6,496,700l. With an estimated peace establishment of that amount, it behoved the committee to consider what reductions should be made, as he was satisfied several might be effected with perfect safety to the country. He should not detain the committee with any observation on the number of troops, as the hon. member who had last spoken, intended to call the attention of the committee to it; but in the expense of recruiting, and the amount of the staff, there was great room for reduction. The Military College presented itself as particularly deserving the notice of the committee. Its expense for this year being 25,173. He was aware that during the war, when we had 3 or 400,000 men in arms, the college on its present scale might be highly beneficial; but it became a question worthy the serious attention of the committee, whether or not it should be continued on the same extensive scale, in the fourth year of peace, and with the prospect of its continuance. He had no hesitation in stating, that it ought to be very much reduced. It might be said, that the army was supplied with scientific officers from the college, and that it would be very bad policy to cut off that supply. He should prove to the committee, that such an assertion was in reality erroneous, and that the army neither had nor did derive that advantage from it which was generally supposed. There were now 400 cadets at the college, and as four years were required for their education, there should be one hundred a year supplied as officers for the army: But by a return now on the table, which he had moved for, it appeared, that in the three years preceding January 1819,only twenty-five a year had been supplied, making in the whole seventy-six cadets, appointed from the Military College to commissions in the army, from Jan. 1816, to Jan. 1819; so that the country had paid for the education of these 25 cadets, upwards of 1,000l. each; and 374 youths had been educated, in the expectation of obtaining commissions, and had been disappointed. He begged leave to read what the finance committee of 1817 had reported to the House respecting the Military College which he regretted had remained so long unattended to: "Your committee cannot however but question the expediency of continuing the establishment on its present extensive scale. They most heartily join in the feelings which would induce parliament to provide for the orphan children of those gallant men who have sacrificed their lives in the service of their country; and also for the children of meritorious officers now actually serving, but if the whole number at present on the establishment are to be provided with commissions, it must unavoidably operate nearly to the exclusion of all other classes from the army. And your committee submit whether such a system would not be in direct variance from what has hitherto been practised in this kingdom; and whether it might not justly be considered as inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution. But if these young men cannot be promoted, it is almost superfluous to remark on the inexpediency, and eventual cruelty, of educating them for stations which they are not likely to fill, and of encouraging hopes that must be disappointed." [Hear.] The next item upon which he should make a few observations, was the half-rious and tried officers were anxious to be pay list, amounting to 2,876,210.; which employed. He trusted his majesty's mialthough great, he was confident the nisters, who professed themselves anxious nation would, under all its pressure, wil to adopt every means of economy, and lingly pay, as the reward of long and ardu- which they had in many cases, he beous services in the defence of the state to lieved, exercised with pain to themselves, deserving officers; but the great amount, would not allow so unreasonable a course and the distressed state of the finances of of proceeding.-There was another head the country, rendered it the more neces- of expenditure to which he begged the sary that it should not be encreased far- attention of the Committee-The Royal ther, by placing on it new pensioners, Military Asylum, supported at an expense who had not served in the war. By a re- of 36,4821. Although that establishment turn on the table made up to March last, might be considered proper during the it appeared that there were 1,663 captains, extensive military exertions this country 3,063 lieutenants, and 1,214 cornets and had made, he must express his strong ensigns on the half-pay list, of whom many doubts of the policy of continuing it on would be glad to join the army on vacan- so extensive a scale in time of peace. At cies occurring. It appeared that in the this particular time, when the country three years from January 1816 to 1819, was suffering from over population, and there had been 720 gentlemen appointed when the grown-up population could to commissions in the army, of which scarcely get food, it appeared to him to number 294 had been appointed without be bad policy to encourage an increase of purchase, (i. e. had their commission given population from the army at so great an to them) and in the same time, 294 of expense to the state. He thought the these cornets and ensigns had been placed scale of the establishment should be much on half-pay, at an expense of from 541. to reduced, though by degrees. He should 631. a year; thereby creating an annuity not ground any motion on these observaof 16 or 17,000l. a year, which might tions at present, as he considered that any have been entirely saved, by bringing offi- reduction, to be effectual, should be uncers from the existing half-pay; and by dertaken and made by his majesty's mithat means there would have been a double nisters, which he sincerely hoped, they saving, amounting to 35,000l. as the half- would do. pay of the officer brought in full-pay would have been saved to the public. [Hear.] If the half-pay of the 598 officers is calculated at twelve years purchase, there had been an unnecessary expense created to the public of about 400,000l., and which he contended ought to have been saved. It must be evident that some alteration must be made in this mode of proceeding, equally expensive and ruinous to the nation, as it was cruel and unjust to the officers on half-pay, who would have been most happy to have been placed on full-pay and actual service, instead of those new men who got the commissions, and were, as appears by the returns, soon afterwards placed on half-pay. He knew that it might be considered as an interference with the patronage of the illustrious duke who presided over the army, but it seemed only equitable, that, while every one was suffering some privations, and making some sacrifices, he should forbear to add to the burthens of the country as he had done, by giving yearly to one hundred persons, pensions of from 50l. to 60%. for life, by granting new commissions, while so many merito Mr. Bennet said, that the great question for the consideration of the committee was, whether an army of 29,553 men was not too large an establishment to be kept up in time of profound peace. It was impossible that such an army could be employed in performing the duties of the country, particularly when it was considered that there were numerous corps of volunteers established in the different districts. The army kept in Ireland amounted to 20,670 men. If such a number of soldiers were necessary to the maintenance of tranquillity in Ireland, it was a disgrace to the government of this country. It was the duty of ministers to adopt such measures as would make the people of Ireland attached to the government, instead of making them detest it. He had been told, that nearly the whole administration of justice in Ireland, was carried on by means of the military; and it was in evidence, that all the gaols of that country were guarded by soldiers, in the room of police; nay, he understood that the offices of turnkeys and attendants, were performed in the same way; and that in one gaol alone, there were no less than Sir A. Hope begged pardon. He had understood the hon. member differently. The next objection which had been made was to the Military College. This subject had been discussed before, and a committee had reported to the House that it was beneficial to the country in supplying officers for the army. The hon. member here entered into a detail of the present expenses of the establishment, which, he observed, were much reduced from what they had been during the war. None of the cadets were promoted to commissions in the army, but such as were found fully qualified, and of these only sixteen now remained to be provided for. Sir I. Coffin did not mean to find any fault with the army estimates, but he hoped, if an opportunity of reducing the expenditure of the country offered, it would be embraced by ministers. Lord Palmerston, in answer to the ob 37 soldiers employed to do the duty which could be done by three turnkeys. There were major-generals on the Irish military establishment, in number equal to those employed in England and Scotland. There could certainly be no occasion for so large an establishment. There was one subject which he should feel it his duty to bring forward on a future occasion, if the noble lord did not inquire into it; he alluded to the Waterloo prize-money. Whether it was from the vague and unsatisfactory regulations made for the distribution of this money, or from what other cause he knew not, but the effect was, that numbers of those who were entitled to it had been refused, while it was foisted upon those who had no claim whatever to receive it. The troops not actually engaged had been deprived of this money, though they were employed as beneficially, in protecting the flanks of the army and guarding the baggage, &c. as they other-jections which had been made to the numwise could be: yet those troops who were on their passage from America, and those who had been lounging in St. James'sstreet, when the battle was fought, and who had travelled over to Paris, en bour-out, the only means of augmenting our geois, in their gigs, were allowed to participate in it. The whole of the medical department, who had the care of the wounded of all countries, were also excluded from any share of this money. Was this fair or equitable? The whole of the Hanoverian corps, who had sustained great injury in the action, had also been excluded, with the exception (and it was rather a curious sort of exception), of those officers who had run away, from their regiments, either before or during the action. Those officers who had so ran away, having joined the army before it reached Paris, were allowed prize money, while those who had remained at their posts were, according to some new-fangled rule, refused it. Some more fair and liberal division of this prize-money ought to be made, and he hoped the noble lord would take the subject into consideration. Sir A. Hope was surprised to hear an hon. member, advocate the abolition of the Royal Asylum. It was due to those who fought for the country that this provision should be made for their children. Mr. Hume begged to explain. He would be the last man to advocate the abolition of that establishment. What he had said, was, that as we were now in a state of peace, a considerable reduction might be made in its expenditure. ber of men in each regiment, said, that it would be impolitic to fill them up to the usual compliment in a time of peace. If that were done, and a war were to break forces would be by raising new regiments; which it was obvious would be attended with great delay and inconvenience: whereas, by the present regulation, considerable addition could be made to the army, by filling up each regiment. He did not mean then to enter on the subject of the Irish staff, as it was under the consideration of government, and would be matter of future discussion. The Military College merited the support of the country, as it had supplied the army with many able and meritorious officers. It was well known how great an inconvenience, on the breaking out of a war, it was, not to have scientific officers and scientific officers could only be obtained by experience or by instruction. Such an establishment as the Military College was necessary to keep the army in a state of efficiency; for notwithstanding the gallantry of our officers, without either that experience which war afforded, or that instruction which it was the object of this college to give, they must yield to men of superior science. As to the extent of that establishment, it was not found that it turned out more cadets than could be provided with commissions, for the support of the army on its peace establishment. If that were the case hereafter, there could be no hesitation in making a proportionate reduction in that institution. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hume) had said, that the half-pay system required serious at tention, and recommended, as a measure of justice and economy, that the commissions should be filled up from that list. He had not gone the length of saying, that all commissions should be so filled up. Many officers on half-pay, it was recollected, were those who had obtained commissions for raising corps, and who had always been given to understand, that they would be reduced and put on halfpay; they had, in fact, merely purchased in that manner an annuity for life. Yet the commander in chief had always paid attention to the expediency of filling up commissions out of the half-pay list, and if the half-pay of the officers removed from that list were calculated at twelve years purchase money, 2,678,000l. had been saved in that way to the public. On the augmentation of the army in 1815, there had been appointed to commissions 339 officers from that list, whose half-pay at 12 years purchase would have cost the public 226,000l. It was said that the commander in chief might, by putting an officer on half-pay, grant an annuity without the consent of parliament. But this view of the subject was not correct, as, unless by exchange with another officer on half-pay, no officer was put on the halfpay list except by the reduction of his corps, which was a matter of general arrangement. As to the Military Asylum, the object of it had met with general approbation from all parts of the House. It was, in fact, a charitable institution; and there could not be better objects of charity than those for whom this establishment provided-the orphans of officers who had died in the service, or the children of those, who, being ordered on foreign service, were unable to attend to their education. It was said, that with a peace establishment such an institution was not necessary. But how short a time had elapsed since we had a most numerous army? There were now constantly more candidates for admission, from among the orphans of soldiers, than could be taken in; but if peace continued for some time, there might be room for reduction. In reply to the observation, respecting the Waterloo grant, and the complaint, that the medical staff at Brussels had no share in it, he stated, that the rule was, that as this sum was granted as prize money to those who had been engaged in the battle of Waterloo and the capture of Paris, those only who were engaged in the battle, in the sieges of fortresses, or in the capture of Paris, were to share. The garrisons in the rear of the army at Ostend, Brussels, and other places, were, by this rule, excluded. It often happened, that those who performed duties of great danger, did not obtain prize money which was shared by persons who had undergone less difficulty or hazard. But this was inherent in the nature of prize money. It was necessary to draw a distinct line somewhere; and as to the medical officers at Brussels, though they had performed a laborious and responsible duty under very disadvantageous circumstances, they could not be admitted to share unless, the whole of the troops in the rear, including a veteran battallion, which had two days before arrived from England, had been admitted to share also. If the care of the wounded of itself gave a claim to prize money, the medical officers at Deal (whither many of the wounded were removed) would have a claim. He contended that former years did not form a fair criterion as to the amount of force required in the present year. In the last year, sir W. Burroughs had moved to reduce 10,000 men, and a noble lord (Althorp) had proposed a reduction of 5,000 men only; yet, in the present year, 9,800 men had been reduced. General Gascoyne could not concur in the construction which the noble lord put on prize money, which he seemed to think the effect of chance rather than the reward of brilliant service. Lord Palmerston explained, that he meant to put no such construction; all he had stated was, that the prize-money was limited to the army actually in the field, either at Waterloo or at the capture of Paris. General Gascoyne was glad to hear this explanation given; still, however, he thought the medical officers immediately attending on the wounded at Brussels, ought to have been considered in the distribution of the prize money. In the late promotions, he certainly believed that the appointments were made in two cases out of three when they were not taken out of the half-pay list, from promises made to meritorious officers, who had faithfully served their country. In his own regiment, the only five vacancies which had occurred were filled up from the half-pay list. Lord Althorp said, that when on a former occasion he had proposed a reduction of 5,000 men, it was not that he desired no greater reduction, but because the House had previously negatived a motion for reducing 10,000 men. The establishment for England of 29,000 men seemed to him enormous, especially at a time when only two millions were applicable to the reduction of our debt. The force in Ireland, great as it was, might be necessary; but that necessity was only created by the mis-government of that country. Mr. Bennet contended that this was the single solitary instance in which the medical staff had not shared in prize money, as matter of course. At Lisbon they shared with the army for the capture of Badajos, at Salamanca for the battle of Salamanca, at Vittoria for the battle of Vittoria, and it was now, for the first time, that a ray of light had broken in upon the generosity of his majesty's ministers. Sir R. Wilson, after highly eulogizing the character, services, and merit of the medical staff, and contending for their right to a participation in the Waterloo grants, particularly in the case in question, where they were exposed to considerable personal risk, proceeded to put a question to the noble lord. He observed in the army list the names of officers continued four years, yet having a mark against them, to denote that they had only temporary rank. Now, he thought it would be very unfair and injurious to the service, if they were to be permitted to count this as part of their time, and so be enabled, eventually, to dispose of their commissions. Lord Palmerston replied, that it was the usage of the service to confer this honorary distinction on particular individuals; but they held no commissions in our army, nor, of course, derived any emolument from that honour. It was purely, indeed, honorary, and had been in the present case conferred on some distinguished foreigners as a mark of favour. Sir R. Wilson asked, if any of the officers alluded to, as standing on the army list without a commission, did not receive pay. Lord Palmerston replied, that there was not one as he believed. Mr. Bennet, again adverting to the subject of prize money to medical officers, said that the distinction made by the noble lord regarding the medical officers at Brussels and those on the field at the battle of Waterloo, did not hold in other cases, as the medical officers in garrison at Lisbon had received prize money on the retreat of the French from before Torres Vedras, though at a great distance from the scene of action. The resolutions for the different items of supply were then successively put and agreed to. for BANKRUPTCY LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.] Mr. John Smith rose to move, that the House should resolve itself into a committee on this bill. He said, that the necessity of making some alteration in the present system was so generally acknowledged, that it would be unnecessary him to dwell upon it. Some of the most eminent lawyers had given their opinions on this subject, and had suggested the means of correcting those abuses which now existed. He had had communications with many individuals high in the estimation of the country upon this subject; who had advised him to divide the bill into two distinct bills. This advice he had also received from many professional gentlemen, whose recommendation was entitled to the highest consideration. He had, therefore, divided his bill into two parts; the first was the regulative part, and related chiefly to the new administration of a bankrupt's effects, the appointment of assigness, the receipt of dividends, and the recovery of debts; the second contained the alterations which he wished to make in the existing law. The hon. gentleman then moved, that the committee should have power to divide the bill. Mr. Alderman Waithman, after complimenting the hon. mover upon the diligence with which he had investigated the evils of the bankrupt-laws, said that there were certain clauses in the present bill to which he could by no means give his support. It appeared to him inconsistent with reason, that there should be seventy commissioners appointed to decide on bankrupt cases, and that there should be only one judge to decide upon the petitions of insolvents, of which he understood that 4,000 were presented annually, affecting the property and interests of numerous individuals. Mr. Courtenay could not allow the exertions of his hon. friend on this sub |