was successful in a great degree, he would admit; but if it was attended with hardships, it was the duty of ministers to consider what might be the effect of a change in the law. It was premature to discuss, at the present moment, what the chancellor of the exchequer might propose as a substitute, as it was unnecessary to answer the stories which the right hon. baronet had picked up that morning. He could, however, assure the House, that his majesty's ministers had not been intimidated byany threats, but were solely in fluenced bya wish to relieve Ireland from the oppression she suffered under the system. If the evils resulting from it could be avoided without injury to the revenue, he was sure the House would receive the alteration with satisfaction. He had himself attended the meeting alluded to that morning, and could assert, that nothing of the kind described had taken place. His right hon. friend had intimated, that by the encouragement of small stills the evils likely to result to the revenue from the abandonment of town-land fines might be avoided; and that was the whole case upon which the right hon. baronet had got up the tragedy or farce, or whatever description of dramatic entertainment it was, with which he had just amused the House.

Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald agreed, that it might have been better if the right hon. baronet had omitted his observations, of which, however, an unfair advantage had been taken. If the chancellor of the exchequer had indeed changed his opinions, and abandoned the system, at least it would have been but decorous if he had stated to the House the grounds of his alteration. The question was, whether he had abandoned that system of cruelty, tyranny, and injustice: if he had, credit was undoubtedly due to him, though at a heavy expense of personal consistency. Was the rumour true or untrue? If true, had he communicated with the representatives of the great towns, and those who were most interested as to its effects only? The other night he had maintained, with much earnestness, that if the system of town-land fines were abandoned, great in jury would arise to the legal distillers; their ruin would ensue: yet now it appeared that he had consigned them to ruin without the slightest compunction. He had said, that the system was essential to the morals and happiness of the people; yet now he had consented to leave them a

prey to immorality and misery. If any new plan were in project, it was to be hoped that it would secure the collection of the revenue by the proper officers, without taxing the land, and without endangering the morals of the inhabitants. It was certainly most singular that the right hon. gentleman's opinions should have undergone so strange a revolution in the course of a few days; but the more singular it was, the more bound was he to state his reasons, and to take especial care to obtain information and advice from every quarter capable of affording it.

Mr. V. Fitzgerald defended the system of still fines, upon the ground of necessity, and deprecated the epithets that were applied to it. He had supported the principle while in office as a choice of evils, and if he were still in office, he would do the same. He hoped that the measure intended by his right hon. friend would prove effectual; for no man could more rejoice in the abandonment of the principle, provided it could be done without injury to the revenue and the morals of the country.

Sir J. Stewart said, that whatever his opinions might be on the law relating to still fines, he should not be influenced by the opinion of any chancellor of the exchequer, for he never knew two of them to agree. It was the constant misfortune of Ireland, that it never had a chancellor of the exchequer who seemed either willing or able to entertain sentiments of ge neral policy calculated to serve the common interests of the realm, and yet nos conflict with local concerns. There were no fixed principles, but the country was oppressed by an imperium in imperio, by which the general advantage was sacrificed to local and partial interests. He took shame to himself that this law originated in an Irish parliament, and the history of it was this: the chancellor of the exchequer induced the country gentlemen of Ireland to vote for this savage and barbarous enactment, by promising them, if they supported him, that all the spirits of the country should pay a certain duty. In the course of another session, however, this engagement was forgotten, and the system was maintained without the advantages that were promised.

Mr. Wildman, though not an Irishman, could not hear such accusations brought against the Irish without feeling indignant. Accustomed as he was to follow in the train of ministers, he could not hear

such gross attacks upon them without warmly resenting them. He had come into the House with a strong prejudice in favour of ministers, and a disposition to support their measures; but this was from a conviction that they were right. If ever he regretted one vote which he had given in the House, it was that which he gave a few evenings ago, against a motion from the other side of the House upon this subject. That vote pained him a great deal, because he thought the system which the motion opposed was one which went to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty; but he was now glad to find that it was likely to be altered. He could not bear to hear the chancellor of the exchequer attacked in the way he had been. If he could think that the chancellor of the exchequer was capable of yielding to any threat, the House might depend upon it that he never would vote with him again upon any question.

Mr. Dawson said, he felt the greatest indignation at the attack which was made by the right hon. baronet upon the gentlemen connected with Ireland. He was one of those who had waited that morning on the chancellor of the exchequer and the noble lord, upon the subject then under discussion. They had found every disposition to attend to their statements; but he utterly denied that any thing like a threat was made use of.

Mr. Peel suggested that the House had better abandon the discussion into which it was surprised, and return to the petition, which was the only subject regularly before the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer denied that he had recanted the opinion which he formerly held. He still thought that the measure was useful in suppressing illicit distillation, though it was attended with hardships in particular cases. With this view, he had agreed to the proposal of going into committee on the subject. Subsequent reflection had suggested a measure which he hoped would operate as a substitute, and which he should propose in a few nights; till that time the House would do him the justice to suspend their judgment. With regard to the interview of that morning, he should only say that he had met the gentlemen with every disposition to conciliate, and that they had made no attempt to deter him from the adoption or rejection of any measure.

Sir G. Hill maintained the necessity of the principle of still fines, and expressed (VOL. XL.)

much doubt as to the efficacy of any substitute that could be devised.

Mr. Martin, of Galway, did not rise to offer any thing in defence of the noble lord or the right hon. gentleman: he did not think they needed it. But when the right hon. baronet had stated, that a number of Irish members had gone in a body to ministers, for the purpose of intimidating them, he had, though intending to wound the government, wounded the character, or attempted to do so, of those members. Could it be believed, that because their own object was not carried, they would inflict a wound on the government in the most tender point, by voting for those measures which originated on the opposite side of the House? It did not follow, that because he could not attain a great good, that he should support a great evil to the country, by giving his support to the measures of the right hon. baronet and his friends. He did not mean to defend the noble lord, and the right hon. gentleman. The noble lord and his friends did not require it; but it was absurd to say that they could be intimidated. If any hon. member thought that the noble lord could be intimidated, he would seriously recommend him to try the experiment. He gave credit to the motives of the right hon. baronet. He had no doubt they were sincere. The right hon. baronet was a very useful watch upon the measures of the adminis tration. He was well skilled in accounts and other minor matters, and was of service on the opposite side of the House, where, as long as he had a vote, he would endeavour to keep him [A laugh].

Mr. Hutchinson said, he did not rise to defend his right hon. friend,-he thought his conduct was not only out of the reach of censure, but above all praise. He did not know any public man who laboured so hard, who acted so zealously, or so much to his own honour, for the benefit of Ireland and the general good of the empire, as the right hon. baronet. The noble lord had, without meaning it, acted unkindly towards his right hon. friend-he had charged him with directing his attention to local and particular interests. He did not direct his attention to local interests, but where he was called upon to do so as a public man. As to the system of distillation, he would not enter into that subject for the present; he would merely state, that a great portion of the revenue of Ireland arose from

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the distilleries. He would also state, that the great distillers of Ireland had suffered most severely from the vacillating system which the government had adopted respecting their trade When he reflected on the course that was now to be adopted, when he reflected on the sudden and unaccountable manner in which it had been adopted-when he saw ministers suddenly abandon a system which had succeeded, and to adopt one alike opposed to the increase of the revenue and the morals of the people-nothing was more just, nothing more reasonable, than to call for a declaration to satisfy the great distillers of Ireland, who had laid out their capital. He thought it was but fair to ask, whether they were to be turned round again, and whether their interests were to be sacrificed to the expediency of the day? For his part, he could not but hear, with surprise and indignation, of the determination that had been come to, without ministers ever consulting the distillers of Ireland.

Sir J. Newport repeated his assertion, that he had received his information from authority on which he could depend, though the fact had been, in some degree, disavowed by those who were concerned in it. He wished to know when it was the intention of the chancellor of the exchequer to bring forward his measure, and whether he proposed to communicate with those persons in Ireland who were interested in the question?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he would bring it forward in a few days, and communicate in the mean time with those who ought to be consulted.

Sir Francis Burdett said, that feeling as he did for the morals and the prosperity of Ireland, he was rejoiced at the step the Prince Regent's ministers had taken, to abolish so cruel, so unjust, so oppressive a system. If gentlemen would only inquire into the subject-if they would consider the cruel operation of the still fines-if they would reflect on the utter falsity of the charge made against the character of the gentlemen of the north of Ireland, they could not hesitate to put an end to a system which was unjust and oppressive, impolitic and absurd. The distilleries in the north of Ireland had been more particularly adverted to-and here again he would entreat the attention of gentlemen to a consideration of the system, to the expense of its machinery, to the employment of military power, to

ARMY ESTIMATES.] Mr. Goulburn brought up the Report of the Committee of supply, to whom the Army Estimates were referred. On the motion, that the first resolution be agreed to,

Sir Henry Parnell rose and complained of the large military force which the government seemed, if possible, determined to maintain, in a time of general peace. There were, from the report, 29,000 men for Great Britain; 20,000 for Ireland; and 30,000 for the colonies. The noble lord opposite had as yet made out no case whatever to justify the maintenance of such a force. He had not shown that the country was able to support such a burthen, or how far it ought to be upheld, consistently with the public liberty. The report did not state how or where this large force was to be applied. It merely intimated that a reduction of 50,000 men had taken place since the year 1817. He contended for the necessity of showing some adequate justification for the enor. mous expense which so large a standing army must entail upon the country. It was not enough to say that the present grant was smaller than a preceding one; it must be also shown that it was just, and absolutely necessary. In looking at the report of the Committee of Finance, the estimate of the income and expendi ture for the year 1819, would be fully seen. It appeared that the expenditure for this year would amount to 68,000,000%. and the income only to 54,000,000l. leav ing a deficit of 14,000,000l. Against this deficit was to be set off 16,000,000l. the amount of the sinking fund, which would leave a balance of about 2,000,000l. available only. Even in this calculation, the Committee of Finance admit, that they cannot reckon with precision upon the produce of a certain portion of the taxes upon ex ciseable articles, amounting to 34 millions, unless the illicit trader shall be effectually

put down; neither was there any ground in the opinion of the Committee, to expect any immediate improvement in the state of the finances of the country. They intimated no more than half a million for the improvement of the revenue in 1821. He repeated, that he was at a loss to see the necessity of such a standing army, England was in peace with her foreign relations: domestic tranquillity might be said to reign. Besides, in the discussion that had taken place upon this subject, no allusion had been made to the degree of protection the country had from the naval force which was kept up. It had been said that Ireland required a large army for internal purposes in aid of the civil power. Why not rather reform the state of the civil power in that country, and put it on a footing more resembling the same power in England? Why not diffuse more generally the blessings of a good government, and give the people an interest in the maintenance of the laws? The hon. baronet then reviewed the expenses of the various offices in the Irish government. The secretary at war, for instance, had an establishment kept up for him in the castle of Dublin, and another in the Phoenix Park. Why was such an office placed on a more extensive scale in Ireland than in England? There was also the office of army accounts in Ireland, the board of general officers and other departments, which he thought ought to be considerably economized. The staff in Ireland cost the country 19,000l. and in Scotland it cost only 1,900. Surely such an expenditure ought to be inquired into, with a view to a suitable reduction to meet the exigencies of the country. He said, that if the system of government in Ireland was changed; if obnoxious laws were repealed; in short, if pains were taken to gain the confidence and the affections of the people, there would be no necessity for a standing army in that country, and a great saving in this branch of the public expenditure might be made. He next adverted to the different public military offices, many of which he considered as unnecessary, and each of which had a number of boards, clerks, and officersthe expenses of these offices amounted to 150,000l. per year. There was the war office, the army account office, and controllers of army accounts. These simple and obvious modes of reduction had, however, escaped the observation of mi

nisters. It was to be lamented that any fair subject of retrenchment should escape them at a time like the present; he trusted, however, that every member would make every effort to diminish the public expenditure. It was with that feeling, that he had trespassed upon their attention. He should now only express a hope, that the gentlemen who saw the thing in the same light that he did, would persevere in a constitutional opposition to the increase of the public burdens, and to the support of a large standing army.

Colonel Davies said, that even if he were to agree in all he had heard on this subject from ministers-that even if he were to take for granted the case made out for ministers, in order to justify the present extent of the military establishment-granting all this, he yet would prove, that without diminishing that force, there could be effected a saving in the army for England and the colonies of 120,000l. a-year. To prove this, it would be necessary to go somewhat into a dry detail. In the course of last autumn it was pretty currently reported among the military circles, that it was in the contemplation of government to reduce three regiments of cavalry; but now, from the statement of the noble lord, he had to conclude, that such is not the intention of ministers. He would now only say that the report gave great satisfaction to the public. He would now proceed to show what saving might be effected in the cavalry department of the army, without impairing its strength. Here the hon. gentleman went into a minute calculation, to show, that if three regiments of cavalry were reduced on the one hand, and on the other, if the different cavalry corps, consisting now of 380 men, were increased to 450-which he contended might be commanded by precisely the same number of officers, commissioned and non-commissioned, as a corps of only 380-that, with the reduction of allow. ance, men, horses, forage, &c. there would, in the cavalry department, be effected a saving of 30,000l. a-year. The saving on the infantry, he said, would proceed on the same principle. The present state of the infantry was seven battalions of foot guards, and 99 battalions of infantry. Of these he would confine himself to the number in Great Britain and her colonies, being 84 battalions, amounting to 54,600 rank and file. Now, if fifteen of these battalions were reduced,