all further observations on this subject till | he should have heard what were the right hon. gentleman's views, and the opinions of other hon. members who might take a part in the discussion, he should conclude by moving, "That this House will resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider of the act of the 26th of the king, c. 31." existed, and the chances must be submitted to. He admitted that, in the year 1814, in conformity with established practice, he had referred to the parties contracting for the loan of that year, to learn whether they would accede to more favourable terms, if a part of the loan was supplied from the sinking fund. They gave an opinion adverse to the proposition; but if it had been otherwise, he did not know that it would have been well in the Treasury to have acted upon it. With regard to the supposed saving of 20,000,000l. upon all the loans contracted for during the war, if the system of applying to the sinking fund had been adopted, it must be recollected, that nearly 900,000,000l. had been borrowed in that period, and that the saving therefore did not exceed two per cent. Instead of a profit, however, a loss had been sometimes incurred, which would probably have balanced the amount of the saving. The contractors, too, would have ob The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that so far from coinciding in the views taken by the hon. gentleman with respect to the most proper application of the sinking fund, he considered them highly objectionable, and the more so, from the manner in which they had been brought forward and embodied into the present motion. The effect of it would be to fetter the discretion of government in providing for the financial exigencies of the country, and impose upon them certain terms without reference to the circumstances of our situation. The first motion which the hon. member had had in contemplation at least comprised a dis-jected, and offered less favourable terms. tinct and definite object. The present, involving the same principles and arguments, was altogether uncertain and indefinite, and could be productive of no possible advantage. By the act of 1786, a power already existed of taking the course which the hon. gentleman had recommended; and the commissioners were authorized, if it should appear expedient, to apply the sinking fund in aid of the service of the year. It would not, however, in his opinion, be wise to make it compulsory on them to apply it in this manner. He knew that it was a question on which much diversity of sentiment existed; but as to the case of the loan in 1815, and the saving of 2,000,000l., which it was alleged might have been effected, the hon. gentleman had overlooked the circumstances attending it, and the causes which had produced that state of things on which he formed his calculations. It was true, that a great profit had been made upon the loan alluded to, but it was contracted for previous to the battle of Waterloo, and the profit was derived from conquest, and the successful termination of hostilities. If these results could have been foreseen, this proceeding, or some other measure of equal benefit, might have been adopted. Had the battle of Waterloo been lost in stead of won, the subscribers to that loan would probably have experienced a considerable loss. This alternative always (VOL. XL.) If they had been sincere in their declara- of his duty, were he now to enter into the discussion of it. Lord Althorp said, that the House would remember, that when, five years ago, a similar proposition to the present one was brought forward, the chancellor of the exchequer was not so much disinclined to it as he was at present. He allowed that it was difficult to argue, à priori, what the effects were of buying stock with one hand, while we were borrowing money with the other; but when it was said, that this system produced steadiness in the price of the funds, they all knew, that up to the beginning of the war in 1793, the prices of the funds were just as steady as they had been since. It might be objected, that at that time the transactions in the funds were not of their present magnitude. But this argument would tell another way: for individuals had undoubtedly a greater power to command a small market than a large one. The question was not, whether the sinking fund should be abolished, but whether it should be applied according to Mr. Fox's clause? And it could not be said, that the existence of the fund was involved, when it was only to be considered, whether it should be applied to the reduction of the debt of 1819, or of any other period. Mr. Wilson said, he had felt somewhat startled at the hon. mover's proposition, conceiving that the system which he recommended would be productive of many fluctuations and false alarms in the money market. If the present plan should be departed from, no one would know what to look forward to in the following year. A dangerous precedent would have been established, and a future chancellor of the exchequer might be tempted to continue providing for the public service in the same way. In the present financial state of the country, we ought to look our difficulties in the face. The regular application of the sinking fund might be convenient, but it would endanger the revenue, and render the necessity of retrenchment less obvious. If such a proceeding, however, were modified, and limited to a particular exigency, he should not oppose it. There was one difficulty under which we laboured, as he believed that all were agreed in the propriety of the recommendation contained in the report of the Bank committee: he alluded to the necessity of putting the Bank into possession of its own means, with a view of enabling it to resume cash-payments. It appeared to him, that 10,000,000l. would be too large a sum to pay to the Bank out of any loan, and that 5,000,000l. might therefore, on this occasion, be advantageously taken from the sinking fund. Mr. Ricardo said, that he understood, the hon. mover to have argued, not that the commissioners, if subscribers for the loans, would have procured for the public the profit which arose from the events of war or peace; but that they would have retained for the public that regular premium which the contractors obtained independently of the events of peace or war-which they were entitled to for undertaking the risk of such extensive undertakings, but which of course, under the present plan, was lost to the public. In that opinion he heartily concurred, as he could not conceive the advantage which could arise from giving the commissioners sums to lay out in the purchase of stock, while sellers were sent by the government to supply them with the stock which they were to buy. The contractors for the loan brought their stock to market just in the same degrees as the commissioners purchased it: they did not dispose of it in the mass, but brought it weekly. and daily to market to provide for their instalments. Any gentleman who supposed that if process did not go on, it would be in the power of the jobbers to make hard terms with the sellers of stock, must have been perfectly ignorant of the stock market [Hear! hear!], for competition was no where carried to such an extent, and no where operated with more benefit to the public. His hon. friend had alluded to the opinion which he (Mr. Ricardo) had given before the chancellor of the exchequer in 1814. He had certainly then given the opinion which he had long entertained. He should have shrunk into the earth before those who had long known his sentiments if he had given any other; but he knew that those gentlemen who gave a contrary opinion, had given it just as conscientiously; for great and sincere differences of judgment on this subject existed in the city. To him it certainly appeared, that if the process of the sinking fund had an effect on the stock market, a similar process must produce an effect on all other markets in the country, and that, for instance, it must be contended that the chancellor of the exchequer could produce an effect 1 on the corn-market, by sending a commissioner to buy a quarter of wheat, while hé sent a contractor to sell the same quantity. do so. Mr. Huskisson said, he did not mean to occupy the attention of the House more than a few minutes in giving his opinion on this question, The hon. member called upon them to go into a committee on the sinking fund act, but he had not stated what course of proceeding they were to adopt; he had not even given an opinion on that point. By the act, as it now stood, the commissioners were empowered to subscribe to any loan for the public service, if they thought proper. There certainly existed a great difference of opinion as to the propriety of the commissioners so subscribing to any loan; many thought that it would be right, and others that it would be wrong of them to But surely the House was not prepared to go into a committee to make it imperative on the commissioners to dispose of the sinking fund in this manner. And if so, to what purpose was a committee proposed? Much had been said of the loss sustained by the country, from not having so applied the sinking fund, but it was impossible to come to any decision on such a complicated question as this was, by arguing on abstract grounds; any such arguments must always lead to fallacious conclusions. He hoped the House would perceive the necessity of leaving the commissioners of the sinking fund free and unfettered, to apply it as may conduce most to the public interest. On these grounds, and on the ground that nothing definitive had been proposed by the hon. member who made the motion, and that acceding to it would fetter the chancellor of the exchequer in his measure of finance for the year, he felt it his duty to oppose it. when the borrower had a sum in his poc- Mr. J. P.Grant said, that his hon. friend had added one to the many obligations he had already conferred on the country, by bringing forward this question. It was objected that the motion had no definitive object, and at the same time it was said, that it would be improper to decide upon it at present, as it would fetter the chancellor of the exchequer in his financial plans for the year. He thought the House had heard enough to show that this subject was one which called for their most mature consideration. It puzzled him exceedingly, to understand how any benefit could be derived from borrowing money, § Mr. Callaghan said, that whatever might be the opinion of gentlemen on the proposition now before the House, all who heard the discussion this night must, he thought, be convinced of this-that in the fourth year of peace, with a debt of 800,000,000l. we ought to have a real and effective sinking fund, not a nominal one. The case of a country was the same as that of an individual: no man would say he had established a fund for liquidating his debts, if he could not show an excess of ordinary income over his ordinary expenditure. To establish a sinking fund of this sort, we must either reduce the expenditure, or raise the income. Out of an outgoing of 51,000,000l. which the estimates of the year amounted to, (39,000,000l. whereof were fixed and not reducible), he doubted the practicability of effecting any material diminution of expense; but when he considered the resources of the country, he thought it perfectly possible to raise the income; and if he were asked how he would remove the present distress, he would answer, "Raise your income, and establish an effective sinking fund." Our income was once at 70 or 80 millions, and he thought that by prudently taxing commodities which would admit of it, it might, without adding to the national pressure, be brought nearer that sum than it was at present. He could not assent to the motion, as the sinking fund was the foundation of public credit. Mr. Ellice thought there would be a difficulty in going into a committee, until the chancellor of the exchequer made known his plan of finance. This difficulty was increased by the manner in which the motion had been brought forward. If the question was for appropriating the sinking fund of the year to any loan which might be necessary for the public service, he would agree to it, as he did not think the chancellor of the exchequer had answered the expectations of the country, who thought that after four years of peace they would be relieved from the great pressure which they had borne during the war. But if the hon. member opposite meant, by increasing the income of the country, that any new tax was to be introduced, he would oppose such a measure to the utmost of his power. Mr. Grenfell rose to reply. He had heard a good deal said of the effect which the purchases by the commissioners of the sinking fund had in keeping the price of stock from fluctuating. Now, he held in his hand an account of the different prices of the three per cents, from which it appeared, that in 1816, they were at 61; since that period they had been at 83, and to-day the price was 72. So much for the steadiness of the funds! The next objection was, that this was an improper time to bring forward his motion. But when could he do it; if not at the eve of a loan? If he waited for ten days, or a fortnight to come, it would be of no use to bring the question forward; the loan would be contracted for; the mischief would be done. It had been said by an hon. member, that the appropriating the sinking fund to the loan, might be used as a precedent by a future chancellor of the exchequer. He did not mean to do away with the sinking fund: he wished to keep its machinery as it now was; but his object was, to save to the country the profit, which the contractors for the loan would have, as they have had for the last 27 years, by applying the sinking fund of the year, as far as it went, to lessen any loan to be made this year. It was objected to him, that his motion was not of a definite nature. His object was now the same as it was five years since, that some measure should be adopted, either by resolution or otherwise, to make it imperative on the commissioners to apply the sinking fund in this way. The only effect of the present system was, to depress the stocks for a short time, and cause a rise after the loan was contracted. The contractors were anxious that there should be a loan, as they derived profit from it; but this was his reason for objecting to it. He considered the question of such importance, that he should certainly take the sense of the House upon it. The House divided: Ayes, 39; Noes, 117. SALT LAWS.] Mr. Wallace rose to move for leave to bring in a bill, to alter and amend the salt revenue laws. On a former occasion it had been stated to the House, that the number of prosecutions for breaches of the salt laws were numerous and severe; and that the number of compromises under these prosecutions, amounted to 3,000, for which large sums had been paid. From the papers which had been moved for on that occasion, it appeared, however, that the total number in three years was 13, the charge on which was 3571.; and that of this sum, 2651. had been exacted. The whole costs amounted to 1287., of which no more than 45. had been received. This was the result of the numerous cases of hardship which were said to have taken place. He was anxious to point out to the House on what ground reflections injurious to the collection of the revenue were made. He knew the gentleman who was solicitor to the board of excise, and he could assure the House, that there was not any where a man less capable of abusing the power vested in him. There were twenty-four points on which he intended to introduce amendments in the salt revenue laws. He would mention two or three of them to the House. First, he intended that the bonds given by persons using salt should be cancelled after a certain period. With respect to conveying salt coastwise, such regulations would be adopted as would at once protect the revenue and the individual. Such alterations would also be made, as would enable poor fishermen and persons residing on the coast to lay up food for their families. He was aware that great benefits might be derived from the use of salt on land; and that the difficulty with which it was to be procured, more than the price of the article, was the cause why it was not more used; by the bill he was about to introduce, it was provided that depots should be established in different quarters of the country, where salt could be had at a moderate rate. The bill was one of details, and he thought it would be better to discuss its different points in committee. He did not mean to have it hurried through the House; so that gentlemen would, when it was printed, have an opportunity of considering it at their leisure. Mr. Calcraft was happy to find that remedies were to be applied to the grievances complained of. He was not present when a motion was last made on this subject; but if he had, he would have felt it his duty to oppose that motion. With respect to the solicitor of the excise, he could say, that as far as he had the pleasure of knowing him, he was as honourable and upright a man, as any in the community. He would attend to the bill in its different stages, and he had no doubt but great benefit would be derived from it to the public. As long as it was necessary to continue this tax, the excise laws to be effective must be vigorous. Mr. Tremayne hoped the fisheries would be relieved from the heavy obstructions that now existed against their making use of salt. Mr. D. W. Harvey said, that the returns which had been read by the hon. member, stated that the prosecutions and compromises under the excise laws had been few, and the expences comparatively trifling. It gave him pleasure to hear this; but he was surprised that those returns on one part of the question had been furnished, while others had been refused. In a few days he would take an opportunity of moving for some other documents on this subject. Leave was given to bring in the bill. FOREIGN ENLISTMENT BILL.] The Attorney General rose, to move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent enlistments, and equipments of vessels for foreign service. Every state, he observed was at liberty to set restrictions on its subjects to prevent them from entering into the service of other states for the purpose of warfare. The law of our country on this subject, founded on a statute of Geo. 2nd, made it an offence amounting to a felony to enter into the service of a foreign state. The object of that law was, to prevent his majesty's subjects from engaging in the service of any state at war with another state with which he was not at war. But it was important to the country, that if neutrality was to be preserved, it should be preserved between states that claimed to themselves the right to act as states, as well as between those that were acknowledged to be states. The words |