nion. First, the opinions of the Protestants, of Ireland and some petitions from some of that body had been advanced as proving a change in the opinion of that class of his majesty's subjects; but when he considered the great property power and influence in that country which belonged to the noble lords opposite (certainly they would only use the influence of their high opinion) the only surprise was, that more petitions had not been obtained, and that such power and influence could only extract eight or ten petitions from that country proved to him that the opinions of the Protestants of that country were not changed and that they looked at this question with alarm. Next, the opinion of the people of England; they had indeed spoken their sense in petitions, against the measure, but upon these petitions he could not help making an observation; when the clergy petitioned their petitions were censured by the noble lords; if they were silent, their silence was construed in favour of the claims, but he must insist that every British subject had a right to be heard; and in no case could the clergy come forward with greater propriety than when they considered the religious establishment endangered. However, petitions there were enough to mark the public opinion, and to prove that opinion he should appeal to higher authority than that of the favourers of the Catholic claims. Until the last year, this subject was brought forward every year since 1805 with the greatest urgency except one (1806) when " a wise and powerful government" thought proper to keep it back; but why was it kept back on the very eve of a popular election? What an excellent opportunity such a subject must have afforded to a certain class of statesmen, to declaim upon toleration; and then with their Whig principles on one side, and their support of the Catholics on the other they might have met the people with wonderful advantage, and driven their intolerant antagonists before them, the noble lords and their assistants in another place, however were as silent as mice, and, popular as the question was supposed to be, how did it happen by some fatality that notwithstanding the boast of the late glorious minority on the Roman Catholic question no means were devised for letting the public know who formed that glorious minority. One great argument for this question of abolition of all distinctions, was that it would put an end to all dis§ sensions. If he could think that it would really have this effect, he would go a great way to agree to it. He could state many and most serious questions that would still remain to be adjusted, but he was saved giving the House that trouble by the admission of several of the noble lords opposite, that these concessions would not effect a final settlement of all dissensions. Those noble lords said, however, that if the concessions were granted, all other matters which occasioned dissension would be easily settled, why, then, in this case he must say that he would rather see these matters settled first. If, then, the proposition is improper and the time unfavourable let us look to a few of the arguments that have been used. A reverend prelate and the noble lord talk of this measure having been the cause of the union-that the union had been carried by a promise to, and an expectation of the Catholics. Various no doubt were the expectations and views of different descriptions of men on that measure. What great power the Catholics who had no seats in parliament had in carrying the union, he should rather be at a loss to discover, but he was really of opinion that the fear of the Roman Catholic claims being carried in Ireland had a very powerful influence with many in supporting the great measure of union. He knew one particularly, who was more interested than any one, except Mr. Pitt himself, who was actuated by that opinion. He was apprehensive lest the Irish parliament might yield this measure which he considered would have been a fatal blow to the English interest in that country but that when once the union was accomplished and the discussion of those claims was in England, all was safe, for that no parliamentary party, no minister could force the people of England. upon this question and perhaps the noble lord opposite had had some hints to show that he did not judge very falsely in that opinion. Next, anomalies were stated which no doubt existed, but whatever they might be, he should say they were to be attri. buted to those who pretended to be favourers of the Catholics! What was the case when the relief bill was brought in? Was not every person desirous to make an arrangement as favourable as possible, independent of removal of all disabilities, and was not the measure withdrawn by its supporters upon the rejection of the clause giving the Roman Catholics seats mined friend of the Roman Catholics, and no man was more zealously anxious for carrying this measure than that great statesman; but he, poor man! not being gifted with the powers of prophecy, required not only some securities for the defence and protection of the Protestant church, but he required also, that these concessions should be granted not with the universal, that was nearly impossible, but with the general feelings and concurrence of the people, without which they would be not a source of union and concord, but of civil and religious distraction and discontent. Thinking, therefore, the proposition of the committee pregnant with great mischief, and the times unfavourable for a temperate discussion of these questions, he should give his negative to it. in parliament? Fairly then it may be asked, who are the best friends to the Catholics, those who were willing and have granted them every thing that the state and temper of the country and their sense of their duty will allow, or those who reject every thing and keep up the grievances in mass, attempting what they know they cannot obtain against the sense of the country. The power of parliament and of offices should be reserved; because whilst that power remained whatever other arrangements or concessions might be to be made, you had the power of control and management, but these acceded to, the power was gone and events must take their course temperate or otherwise wherever the storm or current might drive. He denied that concession would of necessity produce conciliation for were not the great concessions formerly granted to the Catholics followed by a violent and sanguinary rebellion? He alluded next to what had fallen from a learned prelate, that England had the reproach of not extending the rights of toleration so far as the other nations of Europe, this he believed not to be founded on fact, but, admitting that every country in Europe, Africa, Asia, and America had acted in such a manner as the noble prelate described, still, until those countries resembled England and Ireland the analogy would not hold. Did those countries contain two hierarchies each assuming religious power? Did they contain in every parish, priest against priest, one in possession of wealth and the other of poverty? Did they contain one million of one religion, enjoying the principal wealth of the country, and the church establishment, the remainder looking at these possessions with regret and anxiety. So much for Ireland. What was the case of England? Had other nations a free parliament, a free press, constant contest of parties, the one making every exertion and every sacrifice to obtain political power, the other to retain it? Could any one say what points a connected body in The Duke of Wellington said, he conparliament of a much smaller number sidered that the whole of this question than was contemplated the Catholics turned on the expediency of removing the might be in parliament choosing their disabilities from the Irish Roman Cathotime and opportunity, and throwing the lics, and upon what concessions could be balance between the parties, might not safely made to them. As a means of inattain? Unless such a state of affairs quiry, a committee was proposed. The were shown to exist in other countries, no whole question turned upon the deanalogy could be established. What gree of security which could be given were the opinions of Mr. Pitt on the sub- to the Protestant religion as by law estabject? He was a very strong and deter-lished in Ireland. To consider this, it was The Earl of Carnarvon protested against the principle that the House should decide on the question of Catholic emancipation, before they determined whether they should go into a committee. He thought the objection to a committee came with a singularly ill grace from his majesty's ministers, who had, during the present session, delegated every branch of the executive power to committees of parliament. The objection to admitting Roman Catholics into places of civil trust and power, was equally untenable after the army and navy had been opened to their ambition. The military profession had been made free to the Roman Catholics, and yet apprehensions of their fidelity were affected to be felt when the question arose respecting their admissibility to civil offices. As to the king's supremacy, he did not understand in what sense the recognition of it was demanded from the Catholics. They were willing to acknowledge the Protestant church as the established religion of the empire, and the king as the head of the Protestant church. What more could be required? Was the king to be not only the head of the established church, but of all sectaries? The argument was absurd. allegiance which the bishop was to take, of what avail could it be, that the law required this oath from a bishop, who was appointed God knows how, or by whom? When all those circumstances were considered-the state of the Irish Catholic church-the way in which the Reformation had been effected-the rivalry and enmity between the Catholics and the established church, and the inadequacy of all securities which had been proposed, there was, in his opinion, enough to decide the question: for the first and greatest duty of the legislature was, to secure the establishments as settled at the Revolution. necessary to consider how the Reformation had been established in Ireland. It was not necessary for him to recall to their lordships' remembrance, that the unreformed religion had been established in Ireland at the point of the sword, and by means of confiscations. All this was repeated at the Revolution, and was fresh in the recollection of the people of Ireland. Keeping in view that the Irish Roman Catholic church, under all oppressions continued in the same state-the pope having the same influence over the clergy -the clergy the same power over the people; in this state of things, he would ask, whether it was possible that Roman Catholics could be safely admitted to hold The Earl of Darnley thought that his noseats in parliament ? The influence of ble and gallant friend had treated the subthe priesthood over the people was foster-ject as if it were of an ecclesiastical rather ed by the remembrance of the events to than of a civil nature. It would certainly which he had alluded; and the idea of un- be highly desirable to satisfy the minds of merited and mutual suffering; and no the Protestants with securities, while the doubt could be entertained, from their Roman Catholics were admitted to a full present feelings, that if the Roman Catho- participation in the advantages of the conlics were admitted to the enjoyment of stitution; but the means of effecting that political power, their first exertion would could be ascertained only by going into a be to restore their religion to its original committee. He could not see how the supremacy; and to recover the possessions safety of a single Protestant could be enand property of which they had been dangered by extending the civil rights of the stripped by the Reformation. It was, Catholics; he, therefore, at that late hour however, said, that securities were offered of the night, would not detain their lordon the part of the Roman Catholics. The ships any longer, than by stating, that, pope, it seemed, had, in the appointment with or without securities, he was willing of bishops, relinquished all to the Crown, to grant to the Catholics what sooner or except the mere conferring of a spiritual later they must inevitably obtain. blessing. But how had that concession The question being loudly called for, been received by the people of Ireland? the House divided: It had excited the utmost discontent, and Contents......... 70was regarded as an abandonment of the Proxies 36. essential principles of their religion, and an attack on their national independence. Did that arise from the people of Ireland having a less clear idea of national independence than other people? No; but they felt that if the executive power possessed any control over the appointment of the Roman Catholic bishops, some se. curity would be thereby obtained for the Protestant church. Considering, then, that the whole question, turned upon the degree of security which could be given, and looking at the various securities which had at several times been proposed, he had never yet seen any thing that came up to his notion of that which ought to be required. As to what had been said of the domestic nomination of bishops he did not see how the laws of the country could operate upon it, so as to make it an adequate security. Then as to the oath of NotContents...97 -Proxies......... 50 147 Contents ...... 106 DUKES. York Beaufort MARQUESSES. Winchester EARLS. Bridgewater gas light companies, by which the community might be benefited, and would, for the sake of an experiment, support the bill. Mr. P. Moore thought, that there would be just cause of complaint, if those who opposed the bill were to succeed. The gentlemen concerned in the proposed company, had already subscribed 120,000l. sterling; and before they had ventured to make any application to parliament, four-fifths of their ca Sir R. Fergusson confessed, that he was not very friendly either to Gas Lights, or Water Work companies-not that he was hostile to the ingenious improvements or discoveries, by which the public had derived great convenience; but his dislike arose from the way in which these compa-pital had been realized. They had also nies conducted themselves. They might be termed a sort of amphibious animals, sometimes upon land, sometimes upon water. In another view, a kind of ambiguous animals, sometimes presenting fire instead of water, and sometimes water instead of fire. So that it was frequently doubtful whether the public of this great metropolis were to be exploded by fire, or overwhelmed with water. In many instances their concerns were so wretchedly directed, as to excite fears and alarms. With regard to the present bill, he thought it so defective in many particulars, that as he despaired of any satisfactory amendments in its present form, he should move the third reading on this day six months. applied to the directors of the chartered gas light company, stating, that if any objections occurred on their part to the plan now submitted to parliament, the new company would willingly enter into any explanation, so as to reconcile all differences. But all the answer which they could receive was, that they had received no orders to state any objections. They afterwards, however, proceeded with a total want of candour, by assailing and condemning the project with every prejudice and every effort of hostility. It was even insinuated to their friends, that if the present bill were not thrown out, they would be no longer able to command the monopoly of the metropolis; and this by a company whose rental exceeded 100,000l. a year. But it would be extraordinary indeed, if this great and populous city, consisting of 8,500 streets and squares, should, in the application of gas light for public convenience, be left to the caprice or control of such a company. The House would see the policy of rousing a spirit of competition, not only to prevent the probable inconvenience, but perhaps the arbitrary exactions also of the said company. Mr. Colclough, although he admired the public utility derivable from the gas lights, yet could not approve of the manner in which the companies conducted their concerns. In some cases, the gas amounted to 5s. per cubic foot only, while in others it reached 14s. The bill now before them was, he believed, in the latter calculation, and therefore was of sufficient quality to answer the purposes intended. But while parliament was encouraging chartered gas light companies, Sir J. Yorke had no partiality for the it forgot a paramount duty to the public, fire and water companies. By their conthat was, to protect the health of the in- duct, they were a nuisance to the public. habitants of London and Westminster-In his opinion, all the competition or to take care that nothing pestiferous should arise from the manufacture of gas, so as to endanger the lives of that community which the companies were bound to serve. The mode now adopted in discharging their off-scowerings into the river Thames, put the salubrity of the whole metropolis to the hazard. This refuse from the gas contained a deleterious composition, which, impregnated into the Thames, endangered the lives, not only of all the fish in the river, but of all the inhabitants of London and Westminster. But he wished for a rivalship in the various rivalry which they produced was the rivalry of who should pull the pavement most violently to pieces. Mr. H. Sumner, in order to accommodate the various parties, recommended the recommitment of the bill. If the measure were a good one, and he was inclined to think it was, it would be unfortunate if the prejudices of the moment were to defeat those who had embarked so much property in the concern. The advantages derived from the application of gas were manifest. Besides the great convenience to the public, by rendering the streets, |
