body must feel to what an extent in these days the abuse of it is carried. That abuse is arrived at such a height, that, in self-defence, if the House values its time which is the public property, and its functions which are for the public benefit, it must be remedied one way or other. While government is thus daily harassed and tormented, can it be matter of surprise that many important questions which require examination in detail, are referred to the consideration of committees? How else can they be beaten out, and sifted to the bottom? Neither time nor human strength would avail for such a task.

"Why," it is said, "do not administration take up the subject of the poorlaws?" "Why" it is asked with admirable consistency on the part of the hon. gentlemen opposite-" why do not government, foolish and ignorant as they are, undertake to settle the most extensive and important problem that ever came before parliament? Weak and contemptible, why do they not carry a measure which Mr. Pitt, in the plenitude of his power, found too much for him; in which Mr. Whitbread, in the vigour of his strength, and backed by the influence of administration, found himself utterly unable to make any way? With such examples before them, why do not government decide off-hand a question growing out of the usage of centuries, interwoven with the habits and deeply rooted in the prejudices of different classes of the people?"-A reference to what has actually taken place will be the best answer to these queries. It will be seen, that the subject even in the neutral hands, as I may call them, of my right hon. friend (Mr. Sturges Bourne) whose knowledge and industry so well qualify him for the task, and whose firm ness and courtesy have conciliated the esteem and good will of all who have had to act with him upon the subject, who has conducted the discussions upon it without the shadow of an allusion to any topic that could stir up party feeling-it will be seen even in his hands, the principal measures emanating from the committee over which he presided, have failed of receiving the support of the House-and that the gentlemen on the opposite benches are divided in opinion respecting it. What is the inference? Simply this: that if government had brought forward such a proposition, and had attempted to carry it as a party or ministerial question, the benches opposite would have been, night

after night, in as full array as they are at the monient at which I am speaking; and those who have not been able to agree on a question by the decision of which no political triumph was to be obtained, would have found it easy enough to concur in opposing-where opposition was stimulated by the hope of discomfiting their political antagonists. Gentlemen well know with how many inflammable and inflammatory topics the discussion of the poor-laws is nearly allied; how much food for declamation would have been furnished against the weakness, the inconsistency, the corruption of ministers, if they had hastily adopted any plan on a matter so deeply interesting to the whole nation, and perplexed by so many contradictory theories and conflicting interests. The time may come when, after the whole of this great subject has been well and thoroughly examined by the persons most capable of examining it advantageously, by persons bringing local knowledge and practical experience in aid of general principles of theory and law-it may be the duty of the executive government to select that one out of the different suggestions propounded by the committee, to which they will give their support, and which they will endeavour to persuade parliament to pass into a law. But of all the subjects of legislation on which government ought not hastily and prematurely to interfere, without ascertaining and if possible carrying with them the prevailing sentiment of the country-this of the poor-laws appears to me to be the one on which it would have been the most unadvisable to take a precipitate course.

But to turn from these specific charges to the general scope and object of the right hon. gentleman's motion. Suppose for a moment, that it were carried, what is the amount of advantage, let me ask, that would arise from the change of administration? Suppose the right hon. gentleman and his friends in power; is there no question like that of the Catholic Claims or the Scotch Burghs which might produce some dissension in their ranks? What do they think of parliamentary reform? What do they think of another Westminster election? is true that the hon. baronet, one of the members for Westminster, is this night with them; but it is only on the understanding that they will support his darling measure of parliamentary reform: After some hesitation, and a sort of whis

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pering negotiation, carried on openly in the face of the House, it appears, that the right hon. gentleman has acceded to the hon. baronet's conditions, and that a coalition has been established between them. Suppose then, the new coalition ministry to be formed, who in point of talent-yes, who in point of talent, of rank, and of consideration in the country, is better fitted to be a leading member of that cabinet than the hon. baronet? Well then, every body knows that one of the first questions which the hon. baronet, when minister, would bring forward, would be the great subject of parliamentary reform. What then would be the conduct of the Whig members of the cabinet? Either they would come forward in a body to support the plan of their hon. colleague, or they would flatly contradict their professions during a long series of years, and by refusing to support a reform in parliament, create a division in their administration on what I presume the right hon. gentleman will allow to be one of the most important, the most comprehensive, the most vital questions that ever " agitated the country." What would this be but the very same reproach which they so unmercifully cast on their unfortunate predecessors? An honourable member has said, that if the ministers are popular in the House, the Whigs are popular in the country. Really, sir, I should have thought that popularity was the last topic that the Whigs would have suffered to be put forward as one of their pretensions to come into power. I do not presume to say, that the ministers are particularly popular, or that I am so, more than the rest of my colleagues; but I have myself gone through the ordeal of a popular election, without the accompani. ment of mud and grenadiers. I was not subjected to such striking proofs of favouritism, as those idols of the people, the Whigs: my retreat was effected with more safety than that of the routed cavalcade, who, with laurels in their hats, and brickbats at their heels, bedaubed with ribbands and rubbish, were only rescued from their overwhelming popularity by a detachment of his majesty's horse-guards! Suppose, then, these mud-bespattered Whigs were to come into office instead of the present ministry, where after all would be the advantage worth contending about? Is it the trifling difference between an unpopular and a pelted administration? The right hon. gentleman (VOL. XL.)

has confessed that the present is a trial of strength; and I trust that the division of this night will show which party, in the opinion of the House, is most likely to give stability to our internal quiet, and permanence to our external glory; and to diffuse a general satisfaction, and general confidence throughout the country. With a view to deciding this question of preference aright, the right hon. gentleman has said, that it would be the duty of the committee to take a retrospective view of the transactions of past years. Yes!-and in fulfilling that duty, the committee would have, on the one side of the retrospect, to count nations rescued, and thrones re-established; battles won with matchless courage, and triumphs unparalleled in their splendor and consequences. They would see this little island, after having saved the continent, watch with steady tranquillity over the tranquillity which it had restored.-They would have to enumerate, on the other side of the account, a series of persevering objections to every measure by which these glories and benefits have been obtained; a succession of theories refuted by facts, and of prophecies falsified by experience: an uniform anticipation of disaster and defeat, contradicted by an uniform achievement of successes equalled in our history. The proposed committee, if appointed, would have to choose between the two parties to which these attributes respectively belong. But what need of a committee to make the option? The whole subject is before the House; and the House may at once come to the decision. All that I ask for my friends and for myself is-a decided course. If ministers are found wanting, let them be dismissed kindly (for promptitude in such a case is kindness) with a clear and striking majority. If the course which they have taken is approved, and if they are to be retained by the vote of this night in office, let them be retained with the assurance of receiving such a support as will enable them to conduct the affairs of the country with dignity and advantage.

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Mr. Tierney rose to reply. He said, that though he should not attempt to follow the long and able speech of the right hon. gentleman, as well because much of it was irrelevant, as because the House was at that hour so exhausted, he thought it necessary to set the right hon. gentleman right on some points which he (2 N)

had misrepresented. The motion had been represented to have for its object, by some, to turn out ministers; by others, merely a committee of inquiry. But he (Mr. T.) had explained, that he thought it necessary, in the present state of public affairs, that the House should mark its own sense of the situation of the country; and he had entirely separated this question from the expression of his own personal opinion. He had stated very truly, that it would be most gratifying to him to see the ministers turned out; but he had at the same time shown, that gentlemen might consistently vote for the motion, who thought that the opposition ought all to be hanged. After the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman had expressed their opinion, that there was no prospect of the question being carried against them, the right hon. gentleman very magnanimously asserted, that if it was so carried he should resign-a promise which he had never made before, and which it was lucky he had not made on many other questions. But when the right hon. gentleman made this declaration, he (Mr. T.) did not observe that involuntary shudder which might have been expected at the idea of such a loss to the country. The House in general seemed rather surprised at his boldness, than sorry for his resolution. If the right hon. gentleman and the noble lord obtained this majority which they foretold, they would have no cause to triumph in it; for, with the exception of these two ministers, whom, according to their own account, it was the object of this motion to turn out, not a member had given any reason why they should not be turned out. The gentlemen who sat around them had held their peace, and thought that all they could do was to give a silent vote for those whom they would not venture to defend. But it was said, that the party with which he (Mr. T.) was connected, was more unpopular than the administration. It fell, indeed, under that sort of unpopularity, which always attached to the opposition of the day. It had the church and the influence of the Crown against it; but he would say "give us these same means of popularity, and you shall not keep your offices for a week" [hear!]. He would let the votes which should that night be given be sifted; he would have it examined who held offices and who had connections with the court, and he had not the least doubt that the party with which he was connected, would

be found to speak the fair, unbiassed sense of the House. The noble lord had attributed to him a wonderful power; he had compared the gentlemen around him to the Mahrattas, and had given him the credit of bringing them under perfect discipline. Now, as to the discipline which the noble lord had spoken of among the ranks of opposition, he knew of none; all he knew was, that a general good-will towards each other, an ardent zeal for the interests of the country, actuated his friends, and brought them regularly and willingly to their posts; while, with the most extraordinary exertions of whipping, the noble lord could hardly obtain the occasional assistance of his friends and partisans. As to the Westminster election, when the Whigs stood on their own foundation, as in the case of his lamented friend, sir Samuel Romilly, there was no murmuring against them, no pelting, all was joy and acclamation: it was not till the Whigs were joined by the Tories that they lost the popular favour: it was not till they were incumbered with ministerial help, that it became necessary to have the accompaniment of dragoons. The right hon. gentleman then went at length into the conduct of ministers in the Bank committee: he said that the plan to be proposed to the House was not their plan; that it came, nobody knew how or whence; and, according to the ministerial system of looking out for windfalls, was immediately swallowed by the chancellor of the exchequer and his noble colleague, though he (Mr. Tierney) sincerely believed; that in their hearts they were not friendly to it, but adopted it because they had not any thing to suggest of their own. right hon. gentleman then denied that his object was merely to turn out the ministers, though he thought that it would not do much credit to the House if their votes should this night show that they had more confidence in the present holders of office than sympathy with the overwhelming distresses of the country. It had been said, that no discordance could be proved to exist in the cabinet but on the Catholic question; but was not that enough? The right hon. member then proceeded to repeat and explain what he had said in his opening regarding Arbuthnot and Ambrister, the Floridas and South America. The noble lord had required that ministers should be tried, not by their conduct since peace, but during the whole war. it so, and then what, glorious warriors

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