Onslow, A. O'Callaghan, J. Ord, Wm. Osborne, lord F. Palmer, C. F. Parnell, sir H. Pelham, hon. C. A. Philips, Geo. Philips, Geo. jun. Primrose, hon. F. Protheroe, Ed. Powlett, hon. W. Ricardo, David Rowley, sir W. Russell, lord John Russell, R. G. Smith, John Smith, W. Smyth, John H. Spencer, lord R. Stewart, Wm. Stuart, lord J. Symonds, T. P. Shelley, sir John Tavistock, marq. of Taylor, M. A. Thorp, ald. Tierney, rt. hon. G. Waithman, ald. Williams, sir Rt. Wilson, sir R. Wood, ald.

TELLER. Ridley, sir M. W.

Sir G. Warrender next moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 1,631,6287., be granted to his majesty, for defraying the charge of what may be necessary for the building, re-building, and repairs of ships of war in his majesty's and the merchants' yards, and other extra works, over and above what is proposed to be done upon the heads of wear and tear, and ordinary, for the year 1819."

Mr. Hume said, that taking it for granted, on the word of the hon. baronet, that the report of the finance committee was to be considered his speech on the grant before the House, he should beg to know, whether it was intended to adopt the suggestion of the committee respecting the Naval Asylum. He thought the House should not vote this grant till estimates of all the naval works had been produced. The committee had voted 15,000l. for the works in Harlbowline Island, and in that case there was an estimate of the expense; but they had also voted 20,000l. for Bermuda, 15,000l. for Jamaica, and 20,000l. for Trincomalee, although they had no estimate of the sums that would be required to complete the works in those (VOL. XL.)

islands.

He would suggest that the amount of these votes be deducted from the grant, till the estimates of the expense were laid before the House. They could not do better, he conceived, than to follow in this instance the directions of the finance committee, who recommended that no vote should be granted till an estimate of the expense was put in. He should also like to know whether the grant to the board of longitude was intended for the present occasion, or was it to be an annual vote? He agreed with the committee in thinking, that the establishment should be suited to the circumstances of the country. He certainly thought that reductions should be made rather in the army than in the navy estimates; but at the same time he hoped, that his majesty's ministers would attend to the suggestions of the committee, and carry into effect all the reductions recommended, whether in the army or in the navy. He trusted that in every branch of the expenditure, ministers would endeavour to make the estimates approximate to the scale by which they were regulated before the war. When it was considered that every expense had been increased by the system of a paper currency, he hoped they would now, when about to revert to a metallic circulation, reduce all the salaries of public officers to what they were in 1797, when the restriction was first imposed on cash-payments. He repeated, that the House would do well to reduce every salary that had increased since 1797, to the scale of that day; and in that case, he would venture to say, that no additional taxes would be necessary. He should shortly submit a motion to the House, the object of which would be to ascertain the amount of salaries paid to public officers in the year 1797, and also the amount of those paid at present, in, order to see how they should now be reduced; and he was confident that, if the House would entertain that motion, it would be productive of the greatest benefit. The civil list had increased enormously during the last twenty two years, and he was confident that if it, as well as all the salaries paid by government, were reduced to the scale on which they were in 1797, there would be no need for any additional taxes. He should conclude by proposing, that the sum of 55,000l. being the allowance for works in Bermuda, Jamaica, and Trincomalee, be deducted from the proposed grant. (3 H)

Mr. Croker observed, that the recommendation of the finance report was, that no new works should be commenced, without the estimates being first produced. To that recommendation the Admiralty had strictly attended. The works alluded to, had been some time in progress, and it was impossible to state what the precise expense would be. If the hon. member looked at the estimates of preceding years, he would see that the grants now proposed were considerably lower in amount. That was, in his judgment, the true progress of economy, to diminish the scale of expense gradually, so as not to effect the public security, but to have it in their power to be prepared for any exertion which a public exigence might require. With respect to the grant to the board of longitude, that was at present 4,000l., while the grant in preceding estimates was 10,000l. He sincerely hoped that every farthing of it might be expended. The hon. member then defended the grant to the Naval Asylum. It was to be recollected that it was originally a private charity, with funds to the amount of 100,000l. When the government took it, with its funds, under its superintendence, it was bound to make adequate provision for its support.

The amendment was then negatived without a division, and the original resoJution carried. Sir G. Warrender next moved, "That a sum not exceeding 419,319., be granted to his majesty, for the purchase of provisions for troops and garrisons on foreign stations, and the value of rations for troops, to be embarked on board ships of war and transports, for the year 1819."

Sir M. W. Ridley took that opportunity to put some questions respecting the works going on in some of the public docks and yards. He would begin with the works at the Deptford yard, the grant for which, in 1818, was 34,468/. The estimate now called for to complete the work was 27,000l. making an excess, on a comparison with the original estimate when the first grant was made, of not less than 20,000. He next desired explanation respecting the works at Woolwich dock-yard. In 1818, a sum of 25,000l. was granted for those works-the estimate now called for was 26,450l. and it was said 11,000l. would be wanted to complete them. In Chatham also, in 1818, 10,940l. was voted to roof in the dock, and 5,500l. was now wanted to

complete it. With respect to the works carrying on at Sheerness dock-yards, 433,8007. had been the first estimate; last year 170,000l. was granted on account; and 555,800l. was the estimate now made out to complete the works, making a total of more than 700,000l. and an excess of 277,000l. over the original estimate. In Plymouth, and other public depots, a similar excess of the first estimate would also be found.

Mr. Croker trusted he could give a satisfactory explanation to the inquiries of the hon. baronet. As to the works at Deptford, the excess of expense had arisen from the foundation of the wharfwall of the victualling department having been discovered to be in a considerably worse state than was at first imagined. It was some hundreds of years old, and on closer examination, patching up was deemed insufficient, as the piles were quite rotten, and it was obliged to be rebuilt. The augmentation of the expense of the estimate at Woolwich had been occasioned by the discovery of Mr. Rennie, that, by a change of the line of the wharf-wall, the enormous expense (sometimes 20,000l. a year) of removing the mud which accumulated in the front of the dock might be saved. This saving was effected by altering in a small degree the line of the water, an alteration which, while it greatly diminished the public expense, deepened also the bed of the river. The vast improvements now carrying on at Sheerness, had baffled all attempts at an adequate estimate before hand, from the difficulties interposed by the nature of the ground in the progress of the work. The expenditure under this head was under revision in all its branches, and he had no doubt would in future be carefully examined in detail.

now

The resolution was agreed to. Sir G. Warrender next moved," That 284,3217. be granted, for the expense of the Transport Service, for the year 1819."

Sir M. W. Ridley begged to take that opportunity of again calling the attention of government to the state of the unemployed pursers of the navy, and their present situation, as contrasted with their previous rank and emoluments. Of clerks who had passed seven years service, and also passed their examination as acting pursers, there were, he believed, about 25 or 26 excluded from their allowance by the regulation of the order in council of 1814; and when it was considered that

12 or 1300l. would give a sort of pittance to such persons, he strongly urged that the Prince Regent should be advised to rescind this order as affecting them. He barely threw out this suggestion, the adoption of which would prevent him from making it on a future day the subject of a specific motion.

Sir G. Cockburn lamented that he could not concur in any recommendation which would tend to augment the half pay list; nor could he consent to any addition whatever to the list, except in cases of vacancies.

Mr. Croker said, that the hon. baronet's appeal was part mixed up in his compassion for the situation of some of these individuals, and part in his idea of the justice of their claims. With respect to the compassionate part of the appeal, he could assure the hon. baronet, that he lamented as much as any man that he could not, with a due sense of economy, give the sought-for relief. The justice of the claim he was not so easily prepared to admit. The state of the case was this -according to the old plan, there were exactly as many pursers as there were ships in commission; and when a ship was lost or broken up, no new purser was appointed until another ship was built or put in commission. This was considered very hard upon the pursers thrown out of employment in this manner, and a custom grew up of bearing pursers on what was called the check of the yard, with an allowance of 1s. 2d. or 1s. 3d. each per day, until the new ship was put in commission. During the late war, an alteration in this plan took place, and so rapid from a variety of causes, was the appointment of pursers, that there were at one time actually 1,000 pursers, though there were only 500 ships in commission. In 1814, the board of admiralty regulated the number, and adopted the system of half-pay; and it was then resolved, that

no

more pursers should be appointed until the number existing was reduced to the number of ships in commission. The expense of the old plan was 33,800l., of the new plan 54,800l.; so that by the latter the pursers were gainers of upwards of 20,000l.

The resolution was agreed to.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.] Mr. Robert Ward then, in pursuance of his notice, brought on the Ordnance Estimates. He commenced by giving a brief statement

of the amount of the ordnance expenditure, according to the estimates for the current year. From the necessity which had arisen of making retiring provisions in a number of cases after the peace, there had been a considerable excess in the half-pay and superannuated branch of this department of the expenditure, which amounted to about 43,000l.; but in every other branch of the department the utmost retrenchment was adopted, and the saving this year amounted to 50,000!. 2s. 9d. The reduction in point of numbers since the peace amounted to 1,824 officers and men in the Sappers and Miners corps. The number of men in this branch was, last year, 9,759; it was this year 7,939. And the board of ordnance, acting strictly up to the recommendations of the committee of finance, had reduced their expenditure from four millions and upwards to about 1,100,000l. The hon. member then moved, "That a sum not exceeding 386,222l. 3s. 11d. be granted to his majesty, in full, for the charge of the office of ordnance, for land service, for Great Britain, for the year 1819."

Mr. Hume wished to ask the hon. gentleman, why the manufacture of gunpow der was so extensively continued, as it was an article that, in the event of its being required by war, could be made with great speed? One of the items under that head was 10,500l. He was also desirous to know in what manner government intended to fill up the vacancies in the staff of the ordnance? He understood that an arrangement had been made by the present master-general, to fill up every other vacancy either from the cadets at Woolwich, or from the half pay. He trusted that that arrangement would be made a general one in the army. To fill up vacancies by other means would be a double injustice. It would be an injustice to the public to saddle them with the expense of new commissions, and it would be an injustice to the brave men on half pay, who had so gallantly served their country. Many of the proposed estimates, in his opinion, required consideration. There was on the table of the House a report from a committee (the committee of finance), which was attended to by his majesty's ministers whenever it suited their purpose to attend to it, and neglected whenever it did not. In that report it was recommended that the newly acquired colonies of Ceylon, the Mauritius, the