would caution the House against any vote of new taxes upon a mere chimera. He would have no objection to the creation of a real sinking fund, if it were practicable to establish such a thing. But be did not think the present a favourable occasion for the attempt; and therefore he could not consent to impose fresh burthens upon the country, amidst all its accumulated misfortunes, merely with a view to any problematical good.

Mr. Callaghan declared himself friendly to the principle of improving our income, and to the means proposed for that purpose. Those who had become the creditors of the state, on the understanding that the public debt should be reduced by a sinking fund, had a right to expect that the pledge given by the legislature for this purpose should be kept. In law and in equity they were entitled to the advantage of this fund, not in name but in reality. If he agreed, therefore, in the principle of increasing the efficiency of the sinking fund, he was no less friendly to the means by which it was to be done. The taxes proposed would most of them increase the income of the state without pressing on the consumer. The right hon. gentleman had proved this in the case of malt.

entering into the question between those who disapproved of, and those who supported the system of a sinking fund, he would maintain that the present was not a favourable opportunity for augmenting our taxes, with a view to the creation or increase of such a fund. He would ask any person conversant in commerce, whether any article, for some time back exported, would bring the same price abroad for which it was purchased in this country? or whether any article imported could find sale here for the price at which it was purchased abroad? Combining, then, these circumstances with the melancholy state of our population, how could the present be deemed a fit season for the imposition of new taxes? Nothing was more absurd than to suppose that government could create wealth; for that resulted alone from the usefully employed labour of the people. But it was in the power of the government to transfer wealth from one class of the people to another; and the effect of the measure under consideration would be to transfer wealth from the industrious part of the community to the stock-holders, for whose advantage the new sinking fund was to be created. Upon the subject of a sinking fund, he was aware that both Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox concurred; but neither, it was to be recollected, had had the advantage of experience. It was notorious, that ever since the adoption of Mr. Pitt's plan, the country never had had an efficient sinking fund. The only efficient sinking fund ever known in this country, was that established by sir Robert Walpole, and which amounted to 1,200,000l. Here the learned member read extracts from pamphlets published by sir Robert Walpole, and Mr. Pulteney to show the important operation of a real sinking fund both concurring in the opinion, that the effect of such a fund would be rather to indispose the public creditor to press for the payment of his debt. Such, indeed, was the fact at the time those pamphlets were published in 1733, as appeared from the provisions of the South Sea company, and other claimants upon the public purse. But no such consequence had ever followed from the sinking fund established by Mr. Pitt, and with regard to the merit of which, he was authorised to state, that Mr. Fox had declared elsewhere a decided change of opinion. However, as to the principle of a sinking fund, he would not now enter into any discussion, but he (VOL. XL.)

Mr. Frankland Lewis begged leave to state the grounds of the opinion on which his vote would be founded, as he had not had an opportunity of doing so last night. The vote of last night pledged the committee to a declaration, that it was now expedient to raise a fixed sum in taxes every year to pay off the public debt to a specific amount. In proposing this question, the first thing to be considered was, whether this or the following session was the best to determine on the arrangement of a permanent financial peace establishment. In the present session, the question of the currency ought, in his opinion, to have been settled, and that of the finance peace establishment left to the next. In this manner the arrangement of the one might have aided that of the other, and they could not have come into collision. But he was free to allow, that there were many and strong reasons against delay. The speculation that was going forward

the agitation about loans-the falling and rising of the public stock with every rumoured scheme of finance, and the consequent effect upon the property of every man in the nation, afforded strong grounds for coming to a decision as soon as pos(3 S)

sible, as they constituted evils of such magnitude that their removal could not be too soon attempted. As far, therefore, as the question of time was concerned, although he would have at first preferred the next session, he was not disposed to negative the resolution which fixed upon the present. The next question was, should we have a real and effective sinking fund? The resolution did nothing but declare the fact on this subject; that we had properly no amount of sinking fund adequate to the reduction of our debt within any limited period, and that it would be proper to provide farther for a more rapid extinction of it. In this he was likewise disposed to concur. The third question was, as to the expediency of increasing the sinking fund by new taxes. It was necessary to provide a surplus revenue for this purpose; and he agreed that, though all taxes were an evil, there was no other mode of creating this surplus but by taxation. The only three modes of obtaining a sinking fund were-1st, reduction of expenditure by savings or retrenchments in our establishments: and this resource, though it had been carried to a considerable extent, was not pushed to its full limit; but even though it were, it would not produce the surplus necessary. 2. The increase in the produce of the taxes already imposed; this, likewise, appeared to offer no adequate resource. 3. A reduction of the amount of interest of the debt; but though this was contemplated in the report of the finance committee, by a conversion of the 5 per cents into a stock at a lower interest, it could not be looked to as a resource any more than the former. There was nothing left, then, but new taxes. The only question that remained was, what ought to be their amount? The resolution stated them at 3, thus making a sinking fund of 5 millions; but though he had listened last night to all the speakers on the opposite side, he could not learn the reason for fixing upon this exact sum. He would not at present enter minutely into the subject, but he would refer to the precedent of 1786, as a ground for his opinion, that new taxes ought only to be imposed to the amount of two millions, making a real efficient sinking fund of 4 millions. The interest of the debt was then 9 millions, and the sinking fund 1 million; the interest was now 29 millions, and a sinking fund of 4 millions would bear the like proportion to the debt.

Mr. Abercromby wished that the question of the currency had been settled this year, and the peace finance establishment with new taxes reserved for the next. Some embarrassment would be felt, as was contemplated by the secret committee, in the return to cash payments; and coupled with the new taxes, it would be impossible to separate the effects of the two measures, and to assign to each its due share in causing the pressure. In addition to this, it was to be recollected, that the great overtrading arising from the facilities which a paper currency afforded, when checked by the measures adopted respecting the Bank, would occasion many difficulties. These difficulties of course would be increased by the additional taxes proposed; and it was not unlikely that those who felt the pressure of them most severely, might ascribe to the one measure those evils which resulted chiefly from the other. Under all these circumstances, the more prudent course would have been to abstain from all new taxes in the present session. But the real question was, whether we were to have 5 millions or 2 millions of a sinking fund for the liquidation of the national debt; and he really could not discover on what principle those acted who preferred the larger sum, considering all the vacillation, difficulties, and dangers likely to be occasioned by measures affecting the trade of the country. With respect to the advantage of having this increase of the sinking fund at present, he would not give an opinion; because he was not sure of the capacity of the country to bear the additional burthens from which alone such an increase could arise; but if he was convinced that the country could bear the proposed increase of taxation, he should certainly prefer a sinking fund of 5 millions to a sinking fund of two millions. For these reasons, he thought it most pru dent not directly to negative that proposal, but to take a course expressive of the opinion that this was not the proper time for carrying it into effect. dially concurred in the amendment.

He cor

Mr. H. Sumner, while he professed his hearty concurrence in all the resolutions, regretted that so considerable a part of the taxes proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer, were of a nature so immediately affecting the landed interest.

The question being put, that the words. proposed to be left out stand part of the question, the House divided: Ayes, 186;

PETI

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS TIONS FROM BARNSTAPLE.] Lord Ebrington and Mr. Bastard presented two petitions, signed by near 700 owners and occupiers of land in the neighbourhood of Barnstaple, complaining of the depressed state of agriculture, owing to the great importations of foreign corn, and praying that a committee might be appointed to examine into the truth of their allegations, for the purpose of affording them such relief as the House might think proper. In presenting one of these petitions, lord E. felt it his duty to state, that among those who signed it were some of

respectable clergy and yeomanry of the district in which he resided; and that he believed the sentiments expressed in it were those of a great majority of the landed interest in that part of the country. The truth of their allegation respecting the advantage afforded to our manufacturers by import duties and prohibitions, could not be denied; and the corn grower naturally felt it hard that he did not enjoy, in like manner, an adequate protection against foreign competition. But look at the present state of our manufactures, and we should find that with all their advantages they were not less depressed than our agriculture, and that thousands of those employed in them were unable to gain their bread, even at its present reduced rate. If, indeed, we could have hoped that the appointment of a committee could have led to the diminution of any of those burthens which pressed so heavily on the land-owner and the farmer, he should have been most happy to have proposed it; but who could entertain such a hope after the late determination of the House, that it was necessary to impose an additional three millions of taxes on the people? Under all the circumstances of the times, he could not conscientiously recommend any further legislative interference with the price of corn. But in giving an opinion in which he had the misfortune to differ from so many of his constituents, he felt anxious to claim from the House for these petitioners, that attention to which they were so justly entitled, as well from their numbers and station in the country, as from the temperate and respectful terms in which they had submitted their grievances to parlia

ment.

Ordered to lie on the table.

USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.] Lord Althorp stated, that as the discussion on the usury laws was fixed for a near day, he wished, though friendly to the measure, that it should be postponed, on the ground, that it was impossible for a certain time, under recent measures, to calculate what the value of the currency, or what the rate of interest might be.

Mr. Serjeant Onslow said, that when he introduced the bill, he was aware of the difficulty of carrying the measure into effect under the present circumstances of our currency. He, however, had no option as to the time of bringing it forward;

because, as chairman of the committee, he had been instructed to do so. As to the principle of the measure, the more he considered the objections urged against it, the more strongly was he convinced that it must ultimately triumph. At the same time, on account of the present uncertain value of money, and the change about to take place in the circulation of the country, he admitted the propriety of postponing the measure.

The order was then discharged.

PETITIONS AGAINST THE NEW TAX ON WOOL, &c.] Mr. Stuart Wortley rose to present a petition from the manufacturers of Bradford, in the West Riding of York, against the imposition of any new tax on the importation of foreign wool. He was one of those who felt the necessity of that House providing taxes to meet the present wants of the state; but, while he admitted that, he was desirous that these taxes should not be laid on articles of the most material importance to our manufactures, and to tax which, went to cut at the root of the national resources. However highly he respected the petitioners, he should not have supported their prayer, did he not feel, that the view they took of the subject was correct. He should therefore, in every stage, oppose the intended imposition on foreign wool.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was inclined to think that there could be no sound objection to receiving any petitions against the resolutions. Even in cases where there was reasonable ground for doubting on the point of form, the House would rather be in favour of opening a door to petitions. When a committee of ways and means had once agreed to taxes, no petitions against them could be received; but as that was not the case in the present instance, he could see no objection to the petition being brought up.

Mr. Brougham thought this question of great importance, as it involved the privilege of petitioning that House. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman in thinking that the ground on which it was alleged a petition could not be received failed in the present case, since the mea sure had not been confirmed by a committee of ways and means; and here he should have stopped, had not the right hon. gentleman gone a step farther, and opened the question, whether, if these resolutions had been sanctioned by a committee of ways and means, that would

have excluded petitions. As this case might arise afterwards, he thought it as well to attend to it now. From a precedent in Hatsel, it appeared that the right hon. gentleman was wrong. After stating the case, Mr. Hatsel said-" We see from the foregoing instance, that the House found it necessary to establish a rule; and they accordingly said they would not admit petitions against a money bill depending." The learned gentleman then quoted another precedent, which showed that petitions had been admitted against a resolution which had been agreed to in a committee of ways and means. This case, he contended, supported his opinion, and was perfectly in point, as it applied to a duty on wool, the subject then before the House. The petitions against the measure were so numerous,that it was not thought advisable to persist in it. Thus, then, although the resolution had passed through a committee of ways and means, petitions against it were not only received, but were so effectual as to prevent the passing of the measure. In 1727, a resolution having passed through a committee of supply, but the report not having been received, a petition was presented against it, and received.

Lord Castlereagh thought that every particular case ought to stand on its own merits. To the reception of the present petition, falling as it did within the admitted principle, there could be no objection. If any petitions should be presented between the concurrence of the House in the proposed resolutions in a committee of ways and means and the introduction of the bill founded on those resolutions, the same arguments would not be applicable. But, in his opinion, the best course would be to suspend any discussion on the subject until it should appear whether or not any such petitions were presented.

Ordered to lie on the table.

THE BUDGET.] The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that as the House in the committee on the report of the committee of fi nance had already entered at large into the consideration of the general situation of the country with respect to its finances, and had sanctioned, by the Resolutions to which it had agreed, the general principles on which he intended to ground the

financial operations of the year, it only remained for him to submit to the committee the details of the plan by which it was proposed to carry them into effect. The House had also appeared to approve (although it had not yet confirmed by a distinct resolution) the measures he had proposed of rendering the sinking fund applicable to the public service to a certain extent, by means of a loan contracted with the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, under the sanction of the provision in the Sinking Fund act, commonly called Mr. Fox's Clause, and of making such provision as would render it unnecessary to resort for the future to annual loans. It was now his duty to describe the arrangements which it was proposed that parliament should adopt for the purpose of carrying that resolution into effect, as far as regarded the present year. In doing that, he should follow the usual course. He should, in the first instance, recapitulate the Supplies that had been granted and that it would still be necessary to grant for the service of the present year, and then state the Ways and Means by which it appeared to him that those Supplies might be most advantageously met; he should then proceed to an explanation of the intended arrangements with respect to the proposed taxes which he was desirous of submitting to the sanction of the committee; and lastly, he should point out those general measures for the regulation of the finances of the country, which appeared to him to be expedient, with a view to render the imposition of new taxes unnecessary, and to prevent any recurrence to loans, with the exception of a small loan for the next year, if it should be required for the purpose of the intended re-payments to the Bank of England. So much detailed information had already been laid on the table of the House in the reports of the committee of finance, and so much had been elicited by the late discussions in the House with respect to the various grants which had been made, and which it would be necessary to make for the service of the year, that on that point he should have little more to do than to refer the committee to those reports for explanation.

To begin with the first great branch of our expenditure-he meant the charges for the military service of the country the committee were aware that the army extraordinaries still remained to be pro

vided for. Adding them to the branches of charge for the military service of the country which had already been voted, the total charge for the Army, Ordinaries and Extraordinaries, would be 8,900,000%. The whole of the supplies for the Navy had been granted by parliament; they amounted to 6,486,000. For the Ordnance parliament had also voted 1,191,000l. In the Miscellaneous Services a considerable number of items were yet to be submitted to the House; among which were the Irish Miscellaneous Services, and the grants for the poor clergy both in England and Scotland; but adding the amount of those to what had been already voted, the total of Miscellaneous Services for the year would be 1,950,000l. In conformity to the regular course of parliamentary proceeding, to which he always wished to pay the attention that was due to it, he begged to state that, as there yet remained some supplies to be voted, it was not his intention at present to complete the Ways and Means, but to borrow from the sinking fund the sum of 12,000,000l.; which would more than cover all that was yet to be granted. This mode of proceeding would not only preserve regularity, but would afford an opportunity of making those calculations which it might hereafter be necessary to lay before parliament.-The total of the Supplies for the year, as he had already enumerated them,amounted to 18,477,000%. But to that must be added 1,570,000l. for interest on outstanding exchequer bills, and 430,000l. for a sinking fund on those exchequer bills; making in the whole a sum, falling short of the sum of 20,500,000%. stated to be necessary for the service of the year in the Resolutions already agreed to by parliament, namely, 20,477,000l. To meet these charges parliament had already voted the annual malt duties, 3,000,000l.; and the temporary excise duties 3,500,000l.; and he should now propose to vote the loan contracted for this day, amounting to 12,000,000l. The Lottery, 240,000l.; and produce of the sale of naval stores, 334,000l. The aggregate amount of those sums, exclusive of the sum to be raised by loan was, 7,074,000l. It was obvious, therefore, that means must be adopted to provide the sum of nearly thirteen millions and a half, which was the difference between the total of the Supplies and the total of the Waysand Means, as he had hitherto described them. He need not also recall to the attention