racters; or military prisons must be built body callous. He would appeal to milifor their reception. He should be curious tary gentlemen, whether a soldier who had to hear what the hon. member for Aber- been flogged was good for any thing afdeen would say, if his majesty's ministers terwards. Experience proved, that it was were to propose a grant of some hundred a punishment which rendered the obthousand pounds for the erection of pri-ject of it insensible to the duties of the sons for the exclusive accommodation of soldier. In a town in the neighbourhood the army. For himself, he felt as much in which he lived, a soldier, for some ofas any one could do, all the objections to fence, received five hundred lashes. A this mode of punishment; but he would few days afterwards, the regiment was still adhere to it, as a choice of evils. ordered to march. The consequence was, The only way to avoid its operating in- that the wounds of this man festered, and juriously was, that all officers should be he died. On the inquest, one witness deinstructed to use their utmost endeavours posed, that all the flesh came from the for the prevention of those acts which, if back bone. The verdict was, "Wilful murcommitted, would render the infliction of der" but, no proceedings were taken, or the punishment necessary. But he was inquiries made, on the finding of this versatisfied that, if ever so ill-judged a pro- dict. He believed that the instance he ceeding were resorted to as the removal of had mentioned was very frequent [No, this regulation, it would be found neces- no, from the ministerial benches]. If it sary, in a few months, to re-impose it. was not let there be laid on the table of the The hon. gentlemen on the other side House, a return of the number of cases in called upon the House to follow the dic- which corporal punishment had been intates of experience. Now, it was his right flicted. He could never believe that such hon. friends and himself who were, in punishment was necessary in the English effect, acting up to that principle; while army, when it was not found necessary in the hon. gentlemen opposite were only at- the armies of the continent. If it was netempting to substitute for experience their cessary to restrain the improper passions own crude and visionary theories. Ought of the men, and compel the due performnot the opinions of practical men to be ance of military discipline, some other received, and their suggestions attended means ought to be adoped; for corporal to? It would be as reasonable, when punishment was cruel in the extreme. any measure of West-Indian policy was The system ought to be put down, and brought forward, to discuss it in the ab- some other introduced in its stead. The sence of hon. gentlemen connected with sooner it was abolished the better. those interests; the affairs of India should Sir H. Hardinge rose amid cries of be kept a secret from all who had a know-question." He said, he would not dwell ledge of that portion of our possessions. When the Corn-laws were discussed, for Heaven's sake let no country gentlemanand, on any financial question, let no political economist-open his mouth. The noble lord concluded by saying that, if the infliction of corporal punishment were abolished, it must be followed by the abolition of the army itself, which, without it, would soon become the most dangerous establishment in the empire. Mr. Sykes said, that the power claimed for the Crown was not conferred either by the statute or common-law; and he read a portion of the preamble of the Mutiny act in support of his argument. With respect to the question now before the House, he entertained but one opinion; namely, that it was a barbarous remedy, equally unfavourable to the liberty as well as to the discipline of the army. It had the effect of making the mind as well as the long on the subject now before the House. One hon. member had stated, that military officers were not to be considered authority upon this topic, any more than law officers were to be taken as authority on matters of law: he would, therefore, produce a document which emanated from persons, who at all events, deserved, and, doubtless, had, the confidence of the House, with reference to it. On the subject of corporal punishment he would read an extract of a report of the governors of the General Penitentiary, made on the 7th of bruary, 1827. The persons by whom that report was signed, was, he felt assured, the last to be suspected of inhumanity, or of a desire to inflict unnecessary punishment. The extract was as follows:-"That soli→ tary confinement appeared to have very little effect, either upon the men or the boys, and certainly did contribute to injure the health; it was, therefore, the opinion of the governors, that an error had been committed in abolishing corporal punishment, and the governors were satisfied, that a revival of this power would be highly advantageous, guided by necessary restrictions, and under particular circumstances;" signed "Bexley." Now, surely the individual whose name was affixed to this report, would be the last man to act with inhumanity, or to recommend a system which he considered either unnecessary or unwise. With regard to what the gallant member for Southwark had advanced on the subject of the Lusitanian Legion, which that hon. member had commanded, he would give his testimony to the admirable discipline which existed in that corps. But it should be remembered, that corporal punishment was not the system adopted in the Portuguese army. He himself had had the honour to command five battalions of Portuguese troops; and, as the system of flogging was not in force, recourse was had to punishment by the sword; the effect of which was, that of the wounds which they received, many died in the hospitals. The milder and more natural punishment was thus rejected; and a punishment, which produced no beneficial influence, but very frequently caused death, was adopted in its stead. Was this a system which Englishmen would ever tolerate? The hon. member for Midhurst had referred to the French army, and commented on the fact, that no corporal punishment was then permitted. Now, a friend of his had, not long since, seen a drum boy shot at Lisle, for striking a drum major. The question was not as to what was the effect of the system of corporal punishment in a time of peace, but in a time of war; and he would refer the House to the conduct of the French army during the Peninsular war; and would quote from the work of colonel Jones, who gave the words of a French lieutenant-colonel, who had said, that it was a common practice in the French army to exchange and to play at cards for women. One instance he related of a commissary who offered two ounces of gold for a Portuguese girl. This was while the army of the duke of Wellington was in a high state of discipline. He would refer to the army of Soult, when crossing the Pyrenees, pursued by the British army. The conduct of the latter was then so excellent, as to have been generally contrasted by the inhabitants with that of the former. He would also allude to the Prussian army after the battle of Waterloo. In that army no flogging was allowed, although the torture of the cane was. When the British army marched through the various villages, the inhabitants remained quietly in their cottages, firmly confiding in their good conduct; but when, through those same villages the Prussians marched, they found them all deserted, and, until they had departed, the people could not be prevailed upon to return. The state of the army of occupation might also be cited; the army of which the archbishop of Cambray, who naturally disliked it, because it had taken, as it were, possession of his country, had reported, that while the British army was there, their conduct had been such as to remove all his prejudices, and to give rise to the most grateful sense of their kindness and generosity. So much for the discipline and conduct of the British army, as compared with that of other troops. If the House substituted any other punishment for that of flogging, it would inevitably be more severe than it was at present. He had taken the trouble to ascertain the number of courts-martial held during the Peninsular war, and he found, that altogether they did not exceed five hundred, all of them being, of course, for serious offences, as trivial matters would, under such circumstances, be passed over, and of these not more than fifteen or sixteen men had been shot. Now, if the punishment of flogging had not existed, acting according to the system pursued in the French army, more than half the men so tried would have been put to death. Would this be according to the feelings or the wishes of Englishmen ?-Surely not. He was satisfied that such a power was absolutely necessary. That it ought to be exercised to as limited an extent as possible, was a truth which no British officer would deny. In the regiment of guards to which he had the honour to belong in the year 1823, there were but three men flogged out of eight hundred soldiers, of which the first battalion was composed. In the second battalion, there were, he believed, five; and in the third, eight; making but sixteen out of two thousand four hundred men. He assured the hon. members who had commented with such severity upon this subject, that there was a feeling in the bosoms of British officers, as strong as in that of any individual in the country, to prevent the unnecessary use of corporal punishment. When it was resorted to, it was only done from an earnest desire to discharge a duty which they owed equally to the country, whose servants they were, and to the soldiers they commanded. Sir A. Hope said, that every soldier in the army of every country in the world, with the solitary exception of that of Great Britain, was subjected to arbitrary punishment. But the British soldier, ever since the passing of the Bill of Rights, could only be punished after undergoing a trial by his peers: his safety and his security were, therefore, guarded by the law. Now, it was impossible that any free-man could be in a better state. Before the passing of this bill, if the hon. members would refer to the articles of war, they would find that there were forty-three cases for which punishment of death were awarded, one of torture, and one of mutilation. The two latter, and nearly the whole of the former, had been done away, by substituting a system of flogging in their stead. There were two reasons why this system should not be abolished; first, that of mercy to the soldier; and second, to subdue the unruly passions of men, with a view to preserve the peace of the country, and the good order of society. It was the duty of those hon. members who wished this system to be done away with, to propose in its place one that would produce those necessary ends. Šir H. Vivian declared, that the British officers were most anxious to do away with the system of flogging, if any system, which could answer an equally good purpose, 'could be substituted in its stead. He assured the House, that the speeches of some hon, members had had the effect of causing that punishment which they sought to abolish; for his own part, he could state, that when he commanded a thousand men, he found, all of a sudden, that a great degree of murmuring had suddenly spread among them. He then sent for the oldest of his serjeants, who told him, that the men were induced to believe that sir Francis Burdett had done away with corporal punishment; and he was actually obliged to make an example of one man, to restore order in his regiment. It was only the power that British officers wanted; they were not disposed to use that power, until every other means had failed. Let any hon. member show by what other means he could preserve military discipline, and he would at once give his sanction for removing this evil, which he now felt to be a necessary one. The clause was negatived, and the bill passed. CORN LAWS.] The order of the day was read, for the House again resolving itself into a Committee to consider further of the Corn Trade Acts, On the question, that the Speaker do leave the chair, Mr. Denison hoped the House would indulge him, while he offered a few observations on the question about to be considered in the committee. It had rarely fallen to his lot to agree with ministers in their measures; but he felt great pleasure in stating his concurrence in the resolutions submitted by them to the House, respecting the Corn-laws, and, particularly, as, in so doing, he knew he acted in conformity with the wishes of his constituents. As far as respected wheat, 60s. was, in his opinion, a fair average between the desires of ultra-consumers on the one hand, and ultra-growers on the other. He approved also of the method proposed for taking the averages; because, besides being an improvement, it tended to insure a fixed price. Some hon. gentlemen had wished to reduce the average below 60s.; but it was impossible for the farmers to pay such extravagant taxes as were imposed on them, unless they received that protection. He did not approve, however, of the anomaly respecting the measures; for nothing could be more absurd than to compel the use of the Winchester measure in taking the averages, and the Imperial measure in buying and selling. He hoped that, in the committee, that matter would be set to rights. With respect to the suggestion of the hon. baronet, the member for Westminster, on Friday last, respecting the currency, although he concurred with him in thinking that some of the present distress had its origin in the change that had taken place, he hoped the country would not again be inundated with paper. He had expressed himself friendly to the resolutions, as far as they applied to wheat; but he hoped, that, with respect to spring corn, some alterations would be made in the committee. Mr. Curteis concurred with the hon. member in his objections to the use of different measures, in selling and taking the averages. He regretted the effects of the change in the currency. The Scotch had succeeded in retaining their one-pound notes; and Ireland would have her's back again. Now, as this was a united empire, he saw no reason why all parts of it should not be placed on the same footing. Notwithstanding the objection of the hon. member for Surrey to a small-note currency, he thought that, if private bankers were compelled to give security, the re-issue of small notes would prove advantageous to the country. Mr. J. Wood said, that the resolutions on the table of the House had produced, not only disappointment, but the greatest terror, alarm, and dismay, among the manufacturing interests, who had been led to expect, that on the meeting of parliament some measure would be devised, with reference to corn, which would be advantageous to them; and now they saw their hopes blasted by the measure that had been brought forward. He condemned not only the average price proposed, as being too high, but the alteration in the mode of taking the averages, the effect of which would be to turn the Corn Exchange into a stock exchange, or gambling house. It was reported out of doors, that ministers intended to give way on the subject of oats and barley, and suffer themselves to be bullied by the landed interests. In so doing, they would prove themselves unworthy of the warm support they had received in that House. use of measures, differing in size, by a case in which a knavish person bought a quantity of grain by the Winchester measure, and refused to pay for it. The seller applied to his solicitor to compel payment, who asked him, " By what measure did you sell your corn?"-"By the Winchester measure, to be sure."—"Then," said the attorney, "there is no use in your going to law, and throwing good money after bad; the Winchester measure is illegal, and you cannot recover." He had no objection to the Imperial measure, but the use of two could only produce confusion. The House then resolved itself into the Committee. On the resolution, "That, in respect of every integral shilling by which such price shall be above sixty shillings, such duty shall be decreased by two shillings, until such price shall be seventy shillings; whenever such price shall be at or above seventy shillings, the duty shall be for every quarter one shilling," Mr. Charles Grant said, that for a number of years, barley was averaged at one half of the price of wheat, and oats at one third. That was their calculated relative value, until the year 1822, when the committee then appointed, suggested an increase in the relative value, but not to any great extent. Since the resolutions now before the committee had been introduced, many remarks, made in that House and out of doors, suggested the necessity Mr. Cripps was quite convinced that of inquiring into the most satisfactory mode the price of corn fixed by the resolutions of fixing the relative value of wheat, barley, could not be injurious to the manufacturing and oats; and it was found, that to take interests. He was, on the other hand, the averages of a number of years, would equally convinced, that the great land-be the best. The average prices of these owners must give way a little, and reduce grains had therefore been taken since the their rents. It was said, that the poor year 1821. lands would all be thrown out of cultivation, if the resolutions were carried. How could it be otherwise. He had lately crossed the Cotswold hills, the soil of which was very poor; and he was sure that an extent of seventy or eighty miles would, in that direction, be thrown out of cultivation, from the inability of the farmers to pay the present rents, and compete with the altered state of the market. It was easy for gentlemen to say that those lands ought never to have been cultivated; but did hon. gentlemen recollect the reason why they were thrown into cultivation ? namely, the demand created by the shutting of foreign ports against us. The hon. member illustrated the absurdity of the Mr. Calcraft thought the agricultural interest ought to be protected to that extent which would insure production, and not let the people depend for food upon foreign supplies. He was astonished to hear hon. members object to the ministers for having, in compliance with the wishes expressed in that House and out of doors, modified the original resolutions. The right hon. gentleman, the vice president of the Board of Trade had not come up to his standard; but, the measure submitted was, as far as it went, so fair and unobjectionable, that he should support it. Mr. Curwen said, if called upon to state his sentiments upon oath, as to what he thought the proportions of duty and price ought to be, he could not say that those proposed by the vice president of the Board of Trade were unfair, or that either the price or the duty ought to be higher. He had no doubt that ministers had acted impartially, with a view to the interests of all classes in the country. suggesting, that it would be more satisfactory and convenient to enter upon a discussion of the general principle, upon one of the several opportunities, which would be hereafter afforded, in the course of the proceedings, and not to encumber the discussions in a committee upon the Resolutions, with a discussion of the general principle; but to discuss the duty upon each species of grain, separately, as each Resolution came before the committee. To give an instance of his own observance of that principle of forbearance which he had suggested to the committee, he should abstain, upon that occasion, from making any other observation upon the coarse, unjust, and unfounded imputation cast upon ministers, by the hon. member for Preston, who had stated, that ministers had been "bullied" by the landed interest, than to simply deny the truth of the assertion. Mr. Wodehouse said, it was his intention to move two resolutions. The first was, that a certain proportion of the duties to be hereafter levied on the several species of grain to be imported into this country, shall be paid on entry at the Board of Customs, such proportion to be determined with reference to the ports from which the grain is exported, and also with reference to the shipments. The second resolution had reference to oats, and oats alone. It was known, that vessels were capable of carrying a larger freight of oats than of any other grain. The vessel, indeed, might be loaded to the hatches with oats, very conveniently; while a similar freight of wheat would sink the ship. His second proposition, therefore, was, that as in vessels of equal size, a greater quantity of oats than of other grain might be conveyed, and as the cultivation of oats was a matter of the deepest interest, not only to Scotland and Ireland, but to several ports of England, it should be required of the Board of Customs to form some arrangeMr. Whitmore declared it to be his ment for limiting the importation of opinion, that the law arising out of the foreign oats, seeing that such an arrange-alterations as to the duty on barley would ment must have been observed in the create more suffering in the country than importation of oats from Canada, and see-the law of 1822. He saw no grounds for ing that such an arrangement was acted changing the proportions between barley upon in the introduction of five hundred thousand quarters, which the government was enabled to suffer to be imported last year. Mr. Ferguson was happy to see that ministers had given way to the sentiments expressed upon this question, both in that House and out of doors; but he could not think, as one hon. member had said, that they had been "bullied" into it. He should be sorry to see the Treasury bench filled by any men, who would be bullied out of any measure, which they thought would be for the interest of the country; and he did not think that bench was now filled by men who would be likely so to act [hear, hear]. He approved of the measure submitted by the vice president of the Board of Trade; but he did not think that that measure went far enough, with respect to oats, Mr. Secretary Peel took the liberty of Mr. Portman supported the measure, and observed, that the landed interest, by conceding that 60s. should be the minimum price, had conceded as much as they could concede. The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, that, when the market price of barley should be at 32s., or under 33s. the duty should be 12s. a quarter, and wheat. He deprecated the passing of so severe a law. If it was passed it could not be long before the eyes of the people would be opened to all the evils of such a system. Lord Althorp said, he could not agree in sentiment with the hon. member. Formerly, foreign corn could not be admitted until the price at home was 80s. ; by these resolutions, it was to be admitted when the price was 60s. ; which he thought would come to be at about 57s.; so that by the change the consumer would gain an advantage of 23s. As to the rates fixed for barley, so far from thinking them excessive, he believed that they were now below the mark; seeing that the expense of cultivating barley was two thirds of that of wheat. Mr. Alderman Wood declared his intention of dividing the House on the original propositions relative to barley. |