state of Ireland being forced upon the consideration of parliament under circumstances which, while they would be painful to the minority, would be most discreditable to the majority in the late decision. universally condemned by the board of 1824. This commission had been superseded by that now subsisting, to which he thought the thanks of the country were due. Their second report stated the number of schools existing, as not less than 11,000, by which 560,000 children EDUCATION OF THE POOR IN IRE- were educated. He felt called upon to say LAND.] Mr. James Grattan entreated the a few words regarding the Kildare Instiattention of the House for a few moments, tution, which was the cause of many aniwhile he stated the substance of a Petition mosities now prevailing in Ireland, and with which he had been intrusted, from which had become so extensive as to the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland, threaten serious consequences. Last year on the subject of Education in that country. it had spent in buildings alone 8,000. The Petition set forth, that the Roman of the money granted by parliament. He Catholic population of Ireland had not the had said, in a former session, that it would benefit of the annual grants made by par- be wiser to place the money in the hands liament, and that a system of proselytism of responsible commissioners; and the was carried on by means of these grants. objection to this suggestion was, that it It was a delusion to vote money to Pro- would interfere with private subscriptions. testant societies for the education of the It was worth while, then, to inquire, to Catholic poor of Ireland, since it was not what those private subscriptions had fairly applied to any such purpose. If the amounted. Last year they were 1807; real object was the improvement of the and the salary of the collector swallowed moral and intellectual condition of the up 1701. of the money. He thought he lower orders in the sister kingdom, it would could show, that since the Union, not less be far better not to place the sums devoted than 120,000l. had been annually and to such an undertaking in the hands of unprofitably expended. Many did not Protestant societies, but under the man- scruple to avow, that the object of the agement of a board, or under the super-principal institution was not to educate, intendence of the existing commissioners but to Protestantize the people of Ireland, upon education, they being accountable as far as it was possible to effect that purto parliament for the expenditure. Such pose. If public money was granted, let a course would give general satisfaction. it be granted fairly; and it was but due He did not mean to contend that any sum, to the people of Great Britain to take care great or small, should be placed under the that it was not misappropriated. The hon. control of the Roman Catholics only, for member concluded by moving for leave to the education of their poor, but societies bring up the petition. which only promoted ill blood, jealousy, and animosity, ought to be got rid of as soon as possible. He begged to call the attention of the House to the progress made in the work of education in the last twenty years. In 1806, a commission had been appointed to make inquiries on the subject of education, from which thirteen reports had proceeded. It was understood, that there was to be no religious interference, and the commissioners went through the charter schools, and many others of private foundation. The hon. gentleman complained that these commissioners had not bestowed any animadversions upon the mode in which the charter schools were conducted; but, on the contrary, had recommended their continuance. The whole sum granted during the last ninety years was 1,600,000l.; and, for many years, 41,000l. had been annually voted for establishments Mr. Hume said, that the petition was of the highest importance, recollecting the repeated discussions, during the last ten years, upon education in Ireland. After the House had so liberally granted money for the education of the poor of that country, it was quite preposterous that it should be placed in the hands of individuals, to be applied, not to the instruction of the children of the poor Catholics, but to that of the comparatively rich Protestants. It was impossible to force education on the lower orders of Ireland; especially when the money for that purpose was placed in the hands of individuals, who, the Catholic clergy believed, had views of proselytism. Suspicions of this kind had been entertained for some years, and they were now most materially fortified. It was worse than a waste of the public money, to vote it for a good pur Mr. J. Smith begged to state it as his opinion, that, if a true reformation of the Roman Catholics was to be effected in the hasty manner pretended by many, all history was a lie, and all deductions from it utterly without foundation. The last four or five hundred years afforded no precedent to show that vehement abuse, and measures of severity, had gained a single sincere proselyte. Conciliation and kindness might do much; but the course now pursued must proceed in discord, and, perhaps, end in actual violence. No man would go further than himself to promote education; but not in the way now adopted by the dominant party in Ireland. The question would come properly before the House when the annual vote for the Kildare-street Society was introduced; but he could not help stating, that some of the reports upon the table contained instances of the most shocking barbarity; and that not a single shilling ought to have been granted, until measures were taken to put a period to such enormities. He heartily concurred in the object of the petition; and he hoped that the good sense of the right hon. Secretary for Ireland would induce him to discourage a course so impolitic and offensive. pose, and to allow it to be perverted to a bad one. No less than 32,000l. had been granted to the Kildare-street Society; but instead of spending it for the benefit of the Catholic population, it had been employed in sowing heart-burnings and dissention. The Catholic clergy naturally protested against allowing children to attend any of the establishments where there was a chance that attempts would be made to convert them. Their convictions were strong, and nothing could overcome their repugnance. If the House was anxious to see the work of education proceed successfully in Ireland, it could only be accomplished by pursuing a plan consonant with the wishes and scruples of the Catholic clergy. He, therefore, entreated the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who was so well acquainted with Ireland, and who professed to take so much interest on the subject of education, not to permit the money to be placed in the hands of those with whom the Catholic clergy would not act. The fair mode would be, to place one sum in the hands of the Protestants, and a larger amount, with the same object, in the hands of the Roman Catholics. The subject was one of the highest importance, under existing eircumstances. Mr. H. Grattan said, he was in possession of letters establishing the fact, that there existed a fixed determination, to neglect no means of converting the rising generation to Protestantism. He felt a strong conviction on this point from what had been said elsewhere regarding a new glorious Reformation. If England and Ireland were to go on together and he hoped the unfortunate measures of ministers would not render it doubtful-the English people and the English cabinet must make up their minds to allow the great body of the Irish people to remain Catholics. Never had a greater imposition been practised upon credulity than to pretend that this new reformation had a chance of being successful. If persevered in, it must end in disunion and calamity. Nothing could be more alarming than the late accounts from Ireland. Letters from Dublin represented, that a sort of religious crusade had already commenced; and that, while in the churches the most vehement abuse was heard of the Roman Catholic faith, the Roman Catholic priests retaliated in their chapels by attacks equally violent upon the Protestant tenets. Mr. Secretary Peel thought he could satisfy the hon. member who spoke last, that after the manifestation of opinion, in which he had not shrunk from declaring his acquiescence, the course pursued by the Irish government was the only one that could have been taken. They selected certain aggravated cases pointed out in the reports, and the law officers of the Crown were directed to prosecute: the cases were sent to a jury in the ordinary manner, but the jury had declined to convict. The Irish government had done its duty; for, although it was apprehended that such might be the result, it was thought right that no means of obtaining punishment should be omitted. As to education generally, he had stated his opinions fully upon the subject, when he was in Ireland. At that period, a proposal had been made to him on the subject, by several persons, to whom he had at once declared, that it was extremely desirable, in his opinion, to diffuse the benefits of education as generally throughout Ireland as possible, without exciting any alarm or jealousy, upon the grounds of religion. In consequence of this proposal, and of the views which he had expressed upon the subject, a school had been formed, comprised of every sect without distinction, and a sum had been voted for its support by parliament. It had always been his wish that the children of Roman Catholic, and of Protestant parents, should receive their education together. It did appear to him to be of immense importance, that they should receive their education in the same school, and that from the period of their earliest infancy a line of demarcation should not be drawn between them. It was his wish that education should be given generally and fairly; that both parties should conform to one common plan; that they should receive their instruction from one common source; and that, on Sundays, each sect should imbibe their religious precepts and form of faith from teachers of their respective communions. There were many Roman Catholic children educating at these schools by Roman Catholic masters; and, if any undue attempts were made to convert such children, it was contrary to the original intention and design of the establishment. A system of imparting religious instruction generally, without reference to sects, had been under the consideration of the Roman Catholic prelates, and the prelates of the Church of England. It was the design, that the children should, on Sundays, receive their religious education from the pastors of their respective faiths. He should be extremely sorry to hear that it had been necessary to abandon these schools from any cause whatever. Mr. Abercromby said, that nothing could be more desirable than the practical application of those principles which the right hon. gentleman had stated. The wish that Protestant and Roman Catholic children should be educated under the same establishment, without any reference to the speculative religious opinions of their respective churches, was most excellent, was most wise and benevolent. He spoke from extensive experience when he declared, that the most serious changes had taken place in Ireland, in consequence of the increased spirit of conflicting parties, and which rendered those sound, virtuous, and rational principles wholly inapplicable to that country, divided and wretched as she was. It was education alone that could raise Ireland from her low and helpless condition, and enable her to assume her rank among nations. The Catholic children would, of course, be withdrawn from these schools, unless they could be sent with a confidence, that their religious opinions would not be undermined; and it would be otherwise utterly hopeless to act upon the principles laid down by the right hon. Secretary of State. Sir John Newport said, that whenever the estimates for the Kildare-street Society were brought forward, he would oppose this grant, with a hope of directing its better application. Sir W. Plunkett said, he did not wish to prolong a discussion which would be more properly considered by the House, when the estimates, or the report of the committee of inquiry, were brought forward. He was, however, induced to offer a few remarks, in consequence of what had fallen from his learned friend the member for Calne. He perfectly concurred in what, indeed, no man could dissent from; namely, that it was most desirable to establish throughout Ireland a system of common education. The principle was equally true, that, having a system of common education, it should rest upon some religious basis; for any system of education, which was not founded upon such a basis, was always dangerous. The desideratum, therefore, was a common religious instruction, which each party might receive, without danger or offence to the peculiarities of their faith. Such a plan of proceeding had been seriously sought after by various persons. They had endeavoured to put aside all sources of religious jealousies and disputes; so that every class might frequent the schools for one common and general benefit. This had been recommended by gentlemen of conscience and of the most liberal feelings. But his hon. and learned friend had stated, that the hopes held out of carrying this system into effect had proved delusive. He could not, however, by any means agree with him, or go the length of saying that the project had failed. It was necessary to state, that a system had been formed of general religious instruction, to be delivered to the pupils in common and without distinction. The plan would necessarily exclude all but those fundamental and general principles nearly common to all sects. It was meant to contain extracts from the Bible, including so much of the sacred volume as to constitute an epitome, in which nothing essential should be omitted. He believed against the Kildare-street Society were grossly exaggerated. He could only say, that if that society had ever attempted a system of proselytism, it had greatly departed from its original principles, and from the designs for which it was esta that this scheme of instruction had been approved by the Roman Catholic bishops of Ireland, as one that could be acted upon with perfect safety by their flocks. As far as they were concerned there was no objection. Notwithstanding the unhappy state of the country, which he re-blished. As to the Roman Catholic priests gretted as much as any man, the scheme had been acceded to by the Roman Catholic clergy; and nothing was wanting to its completion but the acceptance of it by the heads of the Protestant church. He could not believe that the Protestant prelates were unfavourable to so great a national good, or that they were not anxious to promote such a public benefit. He entertained a hope, that a common principle of religious instruction might be devised, and that the children of Ireland would not be prevented from receiving the benefits of education. Mr. Secretary Peel merely wished to say, that he thought the subject of so much importance, that he wished no misunderstanding to go forth, to the effect of creating an impression that any part of the system was to make proselytes. Upon this subject he had only to refer to a Report of the commission appointed for this special purpose in consequence of an address of that House. In this commission were to be found the names of Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Grant, Mr. Leslie Foster, Mr. Blake, and other gentlemen of intelligence and honour, who embraced either side of the question. The commissioners had entered into the system of the Kildare-street Society referred to in the present debate. The question had been proposed to the commission, Whether the system or practice of the Kildare-street Society was or was not, to make converts of the Roman Catholics to Protestantism? The commissioners had reported that "No fact has come to our knowledge to lead us to doubt their own repeated disclaimers of having any such intention." Mr. Donelan had declared, that if any such design had been entertained by the Society, he would not have acted as the inspector of the schools, and that he had performed that duty, because he was convinced that the association had no intention of pursuing any system of proselytism. They had even protected Roman Catholic children as far as was consistent with their laws. The schoolmaster and mistress of the Society's Model School at Dublin were Roman Catholics. The charges interrupting these schools, it was not fair to draw, from one or two individuals, an inference prejudicial to the Roman Catholic clergy in general. Out of sixty Roman Catholic clergymen, fifty-three had approved of the school system, and had offered to give it every facility in their respective districts. Mr. Spring Rice said, he thought that the Society was, from its principles, utterly disqualified to undertake the care of the education of children in Ireland. He made this assertion with sincerity; but at the same time with much reluctance. The hon. member for Waterford had declared his intention of moving, that the subject of education in Ireland should be referred to a select committee. He trusted that the House would then indulge him with a patient hearing; for he was convinced that there were no means of acquiring any moral influence over the people of Ireland, but by establishments of public education. By the present system, boys in early life would be told, when they associated at school, that no difference existed between them, on account of their religious opinions; but when they arrived at the age when the passions were strong, they would be told, that a great difference did exist, and that those who were Catholics must go on one side as a disqualified, proscribed race. A system of divided education was certainly a great evil; but it was the necessary consequence of a divided people, and of divided institutions. Colonel Trench trusted that the Kildarestreet Society were not lending themselves to any system of proselytism. He believed that the mistaken zeal of those benevolent persons who endeavoured to make proselytes was the great impediment to the diffusion of education, upon which mainly depended the welfare of the country. The Roman Catholic priests, who were favourably disposed to public instruction, had often been controlled by their bishops; and those bishops had been guided by orders from the pope. Ordered to lie on the table. what it could be purchased for in that country. Under these circumstances, he certainly did think that some inquiry by a committee ought to take place as soon as possible. Nothing could be more censurable than the conduct of government with respect to that great and important question. The apathy which they had displayed for the last two or three weeks, upon that and almost every other subject, was to him a matter of astonishment. How the country was to go on, if it could be proved that it was not able to support itself as a maritime power, he was unable to understand; and he did hope that the House would press the subject upon the immediate attention of government. They seemed, indeed, to be at a stand-still for some time, on account of the want of a prime minister; and he hoped, if something was not done, and done speedily, to give an energy to the proceedings of the government, that some independent gentleman would move an address to the Throne [hear!], for the purpose of ascertaining what course was intended to be pursued, and hastening the appointment of those men who were to regulate the proceedings of the government [hear]. LAWS.] Mr. Baring, on rising to present a Petition from the Ship-owners of the City of London, observed, that the subject of this Petition-the changes that had lately been made in the Navigation Laws of this country-was one of vital importance to the nation, as there was great reason to fear that if, by any accident or false legislation, this country suffered other nations in this respect to get the start of her, it would be exceedingly difficult, if not altos gether impossible, to regain her position. He took that opportunity, therefore, of asking the vice-president of the Board of Trade, whether it was the intention of government to grant a committee of inquiry upon this subject? He felt himself perfectly unprejudiced; as he acknowledged that he had been one of those who had called for the alterations, respecting which he had since seen some reason to change his mind. He entirely concurred in a sentiment delivered by his right hon. friend, in the very eloquent speech with which he had introduced the bills on this subject, that in carrying into effect experiments founded on untried theories, the best and wisest men might be led into mistakes. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to express his conviction, that Mr. C. Grant begged not to be supposed some inquiry was necessary into the state to assent to the propositions of the hon. of distress which prevailed among those member, if he abstained from followengaged in the shipping trade, for the pur- ing him through the various subjects pose of ascertaining whether that distress he had touched upon. All he rose really proceeded from the measures which to say was, that his right hon. friend, had been adopted, or whether it was not the President of the Board of Trade, the consequence of that general stagnation was exceedingly anxious to take the of trade which had, more or less, affected earliest opportunity which his health all the other branches of national industry. would allow of, to bring the subject under If it could be really proved before a com- the consideration of the House. He begged, mittee, that the present state of the ship- at the same time, not to be understood as ping trade resulted from the measures pledging his right hon. friend to adopt which had been adopted by his majesty's any particular course. He was not augovernment, and that if those measures thorised to make any declaration on that were persisted in, the distress must go on subject by his right hon. friend. He increasing, then it was obvious, that, unless merely begged to be understood as declarthey turned back from the course which ing, that he would take the earliest opporthey had been pursuing, it would be im- tunity of putting the House in possession possible for this country to compete with of the views of his majesty's government foreigners, either in the shipping or carry- upon the whole question connected with ing trade. After several other observa- the Shipping interest of the country. tions, which were delivered in too low a General Gascoyne, after having posttone to reach the gallery, the hon. gentle-poned his motion so frequently, in order to man concluded by expressing his convic- have the opportunity of hearing the sentition, that it had been proved beyond con-ments of his right hon. colleague (Mr. tradiction, that ships built in Great Britain cost just as much again as those built in Germany; in short, that every thing necessary to send a ship to sea, cost double Huskisson) upon the great question which it involved, felt strong reluctance to bring it forward in his absence. As he understood, however, that his right hon. colleague |