having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Ordnance Estimates were referred,

of departments all pulling at the Treasury, which exercised no control over them. If this was the case, it would be the bounden duty of the House to interfere, and apply Sir H. Hardinge said, that in presenta remedy to the evil, before it obtained ing the Ordnance Estimates to the comgreater ascendancy. Honourable gentle-mittee, it would not be necessary for him men often said, postpone the Estimates to detain them with many observations, till after the Budget; but it was difficult inasmuch as the estimates were considerto make up the Budget at so early a ably lower than they had been last year. period. He thought the present mode The reductions which had been made, had of proceeding the most safe and conve- not been made without great difficulty; nient. Before assigning what was to be and it would only be misleading the comspent, it was necessary to know what they mittee if he were to hold out to it any had to spend. The government of no hope that those reductions would be percountry could be strengthened by exhaust-manent. ing its finances, or by stretching its exertions beyond its powers. A country could not be strengthened by an army costing 8,000,000l., if it could afford only 6,000,000l. It was in vain for ministers to say, that this or that island wanted a garrison: the answer was, we cannot afford to support the island. This, however, was not the state of this country, for it was able to keep all its colonies, provided the finances were kept in a proper condition. He differed from much that had been said about the sinking fund. He congratulated the country upon its having such a fund. What would have been the situation of the country, if, upon any falling off in the revenue, or excess of expenses, it had no excess of income, or, in other words, it had no sinking fund? With an income and expenditure of about 50,000,000l., if there were not a surplus revenue, or sinking fund, of 5,000,0007., accidental necessities could not be met. A stronger proof could not have occurred, than that afforded in the present year; for, with all the defalcation of income, there was still some excess over expenditure. But for this excess, the debt must have been increased. He should not object to going into the estimates at present, as he did not imagine that any harm could arise from their consenting to do so. He hoped, however, that ministers would come down as soon as possible with a statement of their financial plans for the year; and he was quite certain that the House would assist them in maintaining those establishments which were necessary to support the honour and dignity of the country.

The Ordnance Estimates for the present year were only 970,8947.; last year they were 1,007,671.; so that they were 36,7771. less this year than they were last. In presenting these estimates last year, he had mentioned to the committee, that the master-general of the Ordnance intended, in the course of the year, to propose an augmentation of seven hundred men to the artillery, by making the companies to consist of eighty instead of seventy men each. The inconvenience, however, which was felt from the want of this additional force of artillery-men, must continue to be felt for some time longer, and the proposed augmentation must be deferred till the next year. In the extraordinaries, the estimates amounted to 223,5327.: last year they amounted to 228,6887.; so that there was a diminution in that head of expense for the present year of 5,1361. In the unprovided head of account, which last year amounted to 1,7137., and this year amounted to 4,6527., there was an increase of 2,9391., occasioned by sending out the necessary supply of brass and iron mortars for the preservation of life from shipwreck, according to captain Manby's apparatus, and by replacing certain engineer's stores, arms, and accoutrements, that had been lost by shipwreck in the West Indies. That head of charge had been cut down as low as possible by the committee, and it was the desire of the master-general to keep it in its present state of reduction. As to Ireland, the estimates for this year were 126,3827.: last year they were 130,5491.; so that there was a diminution of 4,1671. in the estimates of this year. The expenditure for Ireland had, for the three or four last years, been nearly the same. There was, however, this year, an additional sum taken on account of the Irish ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.] The House I survey, which he would briefly explain to

The amendment was then negatived without a division.

the committee. The sum taken last year to promote this object, was 27,6907.; this year it would be 30,000l. The additional sum was required by a new company that had been recently added to the two companies of sappers and miners already in that company.

As to the

sive repairs in the old one. estimate for military stores for Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, it was 135,2051. for the present year; last year it was 164,4167.; so that this year it was 29,2117. less than it was last. That reThe experiment of em-duction had arisen in the following way: ploying common soldiers upon a survey of the House had come to a determination to this nature had been most successful, and allow each soldier in barracks an iron bedthe system of taking men, who a few stead, instead of hutting four of them, as months ago could scarcely read or write, was formerly the case, in one wooden to employ them in measuring roads, and crib. The change had been productive of marking out the line of streams, was work- the most beneficial effects, on both the ing in a manner that was calculated to health and the morals of our soldiery, and confer benefit on the public, and credit on had saved a vast consumption of life in the parties who had suggested it. The those who were stationed in warm latisurvey was proceeding with the utmost tudes. This year a less sum would be rapidity. The officer engaged in super- taken for these bedsteads than formerly; intending it hoped that it would be per- and hence the diminution which he had formed within the time specified; and he pointed out to the committee. The last was happy to say, that when it was com- part of the estimate to which he wished pleted, it would be a splendid specimen of to call their attention, was the supplementopographical accuracy. The maps would tary estimate for the military works in the be published as fast as possible, and would colonies. The grant proposed this year be sold at a price not much exceeding the was 217,000l., and was greater than it price of ordinary maps. The charge of was last year. He had last year explained barracks for Great Britain was this year to the committee, that though this was an 115,2497.; last year it was 147,0871.; so additional item in the Ordnance Estithat there was a diminution in this charge mates, it was only a transfer to the Ordsince the last year of 31,8387. He would nance from the army extraordinaries and beg the attention of the committee whilst the colonial department. Though the he stated how this diminution had arisen. master-general was most anxious to dimiLast year the House had voted 25,000l. nish the expenditure under this head, for the king's-mews barracks. A like sum there were certain military works which it was to have been asked for this year; was requisite, at any expense, to put but as the adjoining buildings could not upon a proper foundation. The heaviest be removed in time for the erection of charge was for the new works in the citanew ones during the ensuing year, the del of Quebec: 12,000l. had been taken call for this would be deferred till the for them annually for some years back. next. Next year the barrack estimate This year it was proposed to take 25,000l., would be increased in the same proportion and for this reason: In autumn, before as it was now diminished. The charge the winter set in, it was necessary to erect for barracks in Ireland was this year a solid work of masonry over the works 117,0777.; last year it was 124,6361.; so that were left incomplete, to protect them that there was a diminution in the esti- from the severity of the weather; and in mate of the present year of 7,5591. He spring it was necessary to displace that could not hold out any hope that there solid work of masonry, before the works would be any diminution in this part of commenced in the preceding year could the estimates, for many of the barracks in be continued. A great loss of time and Ireland at this moment required to be expense was thus incurred in building up made wind and water tight. There was and pulling down that which was ultia charge of 10,000l. in the barrack esti- mately of no use to the works erected. mate for Ireland this year, for the purpose It was therefore determined, that whatof erecting a new recruiting dépôt in ever work should hereafter be erected in Dublin. The old dépôt was so inadequate Canada, should be erected, if possible, to the purposes for which it was intended, in one season, as it was clear that the and in such a state of progressive dilapi-sooner the work was executed, the less dation, that it was deemed wiser to erect was the expense. It was on that account a new building, than to make the exten- that he proposed to take 30,000%. this

Sir H. Hardinge answered, that it was necessary to form a proper dépôt in Lower Canada, where, at present, there was not a place in which they could keep a canister of powder in safety. With respect to the

year for this work, instead of 12,000l., | intention to erect a line of forts on the which he had taken in former years. In river St. Lawrence. He wished to know three years the work, he expected, would whether these projects were to be carried be completed. There was, on the whole, on without any information being given to a reduction of 104,000l. on the present the House on the subject? estimate, as compared with the estimate of last year; and he hoped the committee would feel gratified with that reduction, especially as there was an increase of numbers in part of the establishment. With regard to the resolution for defray-second point, no intention existed to form ing the salaries of the principal officers of the Ordnance, the amount specified in it was lower than the estimate of last year by 3,1761. This reduction was occasioned in consequence of the last mastergeneral not drawing any salary from that department since he became commander-as had been mentioned was not contemin-chief. The gallant officer concluded by moving, "That the sum of 48,4761. be granted, for defraying the salaries to the lieutenant-general, and the rest of the principal officers and clerks belonging to the office of Ordnance at the Tower and Pall-Mall, for the year 1827."

Mr. Hume observed, that, looking to the whole of the estimate, there was not such a saving to the country as they had a right to expect. At the conclusion of the former peace, 18,000l. defrayed the expense of the artillery establishment at the Tower, and the military establishment in Westminster, but they now cost 96,000l. If these two establishments were united, it would effect a saving of at least 48,000l. He wished to know whether it was intended to unite them?

Sir H. Hardinge admitted, that if such a union could be made, a saving would unquestionably be effected by it. But the thing was perfectly impossible; and for this reason the military stores, arms, &c. were kept at the Tower, and must remain there. The finance committee, it was true, mentioned the dépôt at Woolwich as sufficient; but, he was prepared to contend, that it would be necessary, under all circumstances, to keep a large quantity of stores at the Tower. If they could remove the office of the Clerk of the Ordnance to Pall-Mall, there would also be a saving; but the rooms at Pall-Mall were already filled with clerks; and therefore, if an alteration were inade, a new building must be erected. Thus in the very outset, a considerable expense would be incurred. Mr. Baring alluded to a rumour which he had heard of certain works that were going on in Lower Canada, and also of an

such a line of defence as the hon. member had alluded to. In the course of the year 1825, a commission which had been sent to that country recommended that, at certain points, works should be raised; but the defence of so extensive a frontier

plated. There were, undoubtedly, parts of that territory which required additional defence. With respect to Halifax, for instance, it was recommended, that quarters should be provided for a body of troops, and a proper building erected for the reception of a quantity of stores. These measures appeared to be necessary; because, if an enemy turned the sea-batteries, as the place was at present situated, the town must fall into his power. Besides, as Canada was locked up during a certain period of the year, it was proper that stores should be collected in places of safety. In Upper Canada, it was intended to erect a small work on the same model, of which an estimate would be furnished. It was not intended as a point d'appui, but as a military dépôt, where troops and stores might be established. As to a regular line of defence along the river St. Lawrence, no such thing was intended. Before any part of this recommendation was carried into effect, the total amount of the projected work would be estimated by the master-general, and the House would have an opportunity of at once discussing and deciding the question.

Mr. Hume observed, that the items on account of Canada amounted to no less a sum than 51,4757. This was rather strange, after they had been told last night, that Canada was the finest country in the world: that it was rich in every species of produce; and yet, rich as it was, poor England was obliged to find money to support it. The inhabitants, it appeared, could not pay for the defence of their country. We had a losing trade with Canada; and we were likewise at the expense of keeping up forts to protect that

was the insult which such a grant, at the | stood in that altered situation, and had present time, conveyed to the feelings of every man in the country who was suffering from distress. It was the sure way to make the heir presumptive unpopular; and ministers could not have invented any course more likely to place him at variance with public opinion. The hon. member, after ridiculing the idea of such a sum as 9,0001. being required for those charitable purposes, which the chancellor of the Exchequer had enlarged upon, concluded by moving, as an amendment, which he declared no man could fulfil his duty without supporting "That, taking into consideration the present distressed state of the shipping, manufacturing, and commercial interests; the distressed state of the working classes, and the alarming deficiency in the public revenue, this House does not deem it expedient to add to the burthens of the people, by increasing the pension of his royal highness the duke of Clarence, who already enjoys a clear income from the Consolidated Fund, of 29,5007. per annum, exclusive of his professional

income."

Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald said, he anticipated for the vote he was about to give the same severe chastisement from the hon, member for Aberdeen, which he had that night, and on a former evening, given to those who had brought forward the proposition now before the House. That hon. gentleman had characterized it in very unmeasured terms: he had charged it with profligacy, extortion, and insult. He had gone so far, even, as to declare it injurious to the shipping and manufacturing interests. Now, for his own part, he must say, that a more exaggerated statement he had never heard, nor had he ever listened to a more unnecessary display of vehement oratory. For the resolution itself, taking it independently of all exaggeration and colouring, it did strike him as being a very fair and natural proposition to be made on the part of his majesty's government, from the first moment that his royal highness succeeded to the station which he at present occupied. It had been asked, in what consisted the difference of station which his royal highness had so experienced? But he believed, that the common sense of every man in that House must instantly supply the answer to such a question; and he, for one, required no official reply upon the matter. His royal highness now

succeeded to those important relations to the Throne, which called for the support of every man who valued the welfare of the illustrious family, of which his royal highness was a member, or the dignity. and honour of the Crown, to which he was so near in point of succession. One word as to what the hon. member for Aberdeen had said about the insult to the sufferings of the country, which would be conveyed by this addition of 9,000l. a year to the duke of Clarence's income. In a country, where the public expenditure amounted to about sixty millions annually where about half that sum was made applicable yearly to the payment of the public debt-where, during the last war, no less than thirteen millions, and, in the last year only, as much as five millions had been appropriated for a sinking fund, to prop up a particular interest-in such a country, to talk of the grant of 9,0007. a year to a man in his royal highness's situation, was neither more nor less than a gross delusion upon the public. He must also object to this being considered as a question of monarchy. As to the United States of America, and the expenses of their government and executive

if the superior advantages of their institutions were to be made a question, as contrasted with those of the British monarchy, he did trust that that question at least would not be raised upon this grant of 9,000l. a year to the presumptive heir to the Crown. If such a question was to be introduced for discussion in that House, he hoped that, among all the aggravated. topics which could be brought forward with the view of enforcing the preferable nature of a republic as contrasted with a monarchy, the admiration of the national economy attaching to the former would never cause it to be gravely discussed there, whether it would be improper to make such an allowance as that proposed in favour of his royal highness, when his altered and very peculiar station was considered. Believing, as he did, that that station had become most materially altered and that his royal highness was entitled to have such an addition made to his income, he should cheerfully support the vote. In doing so, he was tempted to observe, that there was no man in that House who, during a long political existence, had shewn a more perfect disregard of adulation, addressed either to men in power or