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interests, must be engaged? These disputes were to be carried on in their presence, and they were to be the judges of them. Was nothing to be feared from the excitement to which such displays must give rise? and was this additional ingredient to be thrown into the cauldron of discontent and mischief which was boiling over in that country? He cared not for J. K. L. he condemned him altogether but at the same time he could not shut his eyes to the provocation which the noble relative of the hon. member for Cavan had given him. The objections of the hon. member for Derry to the petitioners seemed to be unreasonable beyond all measure. He had taken the pains to collect instances of objectionable conduct on the part of Catholics formerly, and had argued, that because the Catholics of the present day renounced and disapproved of such conduct, they were not to be trusted. This was an extraordinary reason for objecting to them. In former times, such as refused to recant their errors were doomed to the stake and faggot now, the hon. member for Derry would have them treated in the same way, because they were willing to recant. A great deal had been said respecting the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy at elections. Did any one in that House mean to say, that such interference was against any principle of the constitution? He thought no one would be found to make such an assertion. He was always sorry to see the clergy taking part in any political question; because it had the inevitable effect of bringing some degree of disgrace or discredit on religion itself. But, if such an interference was bad on one side, it was equally bad on the other; but he did not think the charge in this respect bore so heavily on the Roman Catholic as on the Protestant clergy. The law which laid the Catholics under disabilities and restrictions, excited them to endeavour, by every means in their power, to procure an alteration of that law. The Protestant clergy, who had nothing to complain of, had no such cause for interference. The practice, he was aware, had prevailed in many counties to a great extent; but he knew, also, that a very considerable degree of exaggeration had been used, in representing the interference of the clergy.

Mr. L. Foster said, he was desirous of offering a few observations respecting the

allusion which had been made to the conduct of his noble relative, as connected with the most extraordinary speech which had been just delivered. His right hon. friend had been particularly mistaken in two points; first, in considering lord Farnham to be the author of the proceeding which he called a crusade, and secondly in believing it to be a chimera. These assertions were both equally unfounded.. It was only necessary to look to what had been the state of Ireland with respect to religious knowledge twenty years ago, and what was its present condition, to be satisfied that the cause was as different a one as it possibly could be. At the period to which he alluded, there were only five hundred schools in Ireland. Now, as appeared by a report made in parliament, there were six thousand schools, in which the Scriptures were taught. Was it possible that this could have happened without diffusing a great degree of religious knowledge, and exciting that curiosity which was its never-failing companion? This had induced the people to seek "a reason for the faith which was in them," and had given rise to that which the right hon. gentleman had called a religious crusade, and of which he had charged lord Farnham with being the author. He wished to add one word more, on his own authority, with regard to the supposed interference of his noble relative. His lordship had not volunteered his efforts to convert persons to the established faith. It was certainly true that a number of farmers had come to his house, for the purpose of consulting him as to whether they should renounce the Roman Catholic persuasion and adopt the Protestant belief. Lord Farnham, upon that occasion, did not express any desire to that effect; on the contrary, he said, that he had no wish to interfere, and that the applicants had much better consult their clergy, as to the important step they were about to take. His lordship did not tell these people, whether he thought they were right or wrong. All that he did was to protect those who applied to him for advice, and who represented that they were under a dangerous delusion from which they wished to be free. His noble relative certainly told those persons that if, after they had weighed the matter well, they still persisted, they should then receive the facilities they required. He wished to explain this affair, in order to set the public right with respect to the

part which lord Farnham had taken; and he felt it the more incumbent to do so, because he was aware that the country would soon be in possession of the present discussion, through the medium of the published debates.

Mr. James Grattan thought that the principle of fair play should be extended to both sides. The letter of J. K. L. might be unwise and inflammatory, but he thought it had been matched in violence by a speech which was lately delivered in Ireland by the noble lord whose motives had been advocated by the hon. gentleman who last addressed the House. The hon. member read an extract from a newspaper of a speech purporting to be delivered by lord Farnham, at a bible meeting in Ireland, The first sentence of the extract was to this effect-that notwithstanding all the efforts that had lately been made in Ireland to spread the light of the gospel over that benighted land, so strongly had bigotry and superstition taken root, owing to the control of the priests, that those efforts were likely to prove unavailing. The hon. gentleman said that the noble lord imputed to the Catholics a desire to subvert the established religion. The speech of the noble lord had been printed in London. If it was falsely ascribed to him, let him deny it; but let us not impute censure to others, unless we were free from blame ourselves. Would to God that Ireland was all Protestant; then parties would not be arrayed against each other as at present they were. Let them not seek to widen the differences that already unhappily existed by calumniating each other in all the bitterness of party spirit. Unworthy motives had been ascribed to the Catholic clergy; but he knew so many instances of a contrary nature, that he never would consent to stigmatize them as a corrupt and intriguing body. In the parish where he resided he knew a Catholic priest who for thirty years, had officiated with so much benefit to his flock, and so much credit to himself, that when he died he was lamented by persons of every religious persuasion. He knew also another priest whose loss was so deeply felt in the parish where he died, that several Protestant gentlemen had proposed that a subscription should be entered into, for the purpose of erecting a monument to his memory.

Sir G. Hill observed, that as the petitioners had identified themselves with the

Catholic association, he did not think them entitled to much attention.

Mr. F. Lewis said, that the situation which the petitioners held in the country was one of the first importance; and he had no doubt but that the power which they possessed was used for good purposes. It was a power, however, which was greater than it ought to be; because it was estranged from the law of the land. Would to God that the causes of animosity in Ireland were removed for ever, and that the distinction of sect was no longer in existence! Those who were excluded from the benefits of equal laws imagined that they were suffering for the sake of their religion; and they looked to that religion, instead of looking to the government of the country for aid and succour. He wished that the power held by the Catholic priesthood could be looked upon with more confidence; and that the Catholics could place more reliance on their Protestant fellow subjects. The Catholics, indeed, looked to that House with a strong degree of hope. They looked also with confidence to the individual at the head of his majesty's government in Ireland, who, they believed, would right their wrongs if he could. It was said, that the Roman Catholic bishops had identified themselves with the Catholic Association; but he denied that they had done so. He looked upon the association with no very favourable eyes; but its origin and existence could be traced to the peculiar situation of Ireland. The association was the necessary consequence of the state in which the Catholics were placed. It was idle to think of crushing the only medium through which the Catholics of Ireland could be heard. They must have an organ to give expression to their wrongs. The members of the association acted always upon the system of obtaining a hearing for their cause. He believed them to be in earnest in wishing for Catholic emancipation, although the contrary had been urged by their enemies. He believed that the association acted on a mistaken feeling, with regard to the means which they took to effect their object. They appeared to be in total error as to the nature of the English people, in supposing that, by threats, they could frighten them into concession. It was not by menaces or intimidation that the people of this country were to be gained over. He denied that the Roman Catholic bishops had ever identified them

selves with the proceedings of the asso- | less interest in the question. He preferred, ciation. In proof of which he would give an instance of their disinclination to act in conjunction with that body. It was well known that the association were, at one time, very desirous of originating a Catholic system of education in Ireland; for which purpose they wished to apply a part of the funds which they derived from the rent. They applied to the Catholic bishops to sanction the proceeding; but those bishops declined giving their consent, observing, that they had already petitioned parliament for its sanction to a measure of the same nature, and that they should act disrespectfully towards the legislature if they did not await its decision. They therefore declined having any thing to do with the association, as far as regarded this subject. Knowing these facts, he conceived that the House ought to be put in possession of them, when unfounded statements to the prejudice of the Catholic bishops were brought forward.

Sir George Hill said, he did not mean to infer that the Catholic bishops had identified themselves with the association. It was notorious, however, that the priesthood generally, though perhaps not any of the petitioners, were guilty of meddling with matters out of their province.

Mr. Van Homrigh, member for Drogheda, defended the Catholic bishop, Dr. Curtis, from the charge of improperly interfering in matters of state. There could not be a more loyal man than Dr. Curtis; who, in fact, owed his appointment to the good opinion of the duke of Wellington. The hon. gentleman proceeded further to observe, that at a dinner lately given by a distinguished nobleman at which Dr. Curtis was present, the memory of his royal highness the duke of York being proposed, Dr. Curtis made an eloquent speech, in which he eulogized the virtues of the deceased prince, and lamented the language made use of, against his royal highness, by certain members of the association.

Mr. Secretary Peel said, that before he came down to the House, he had formed a resolution not to express any opinion on the subject now under discussion. He should, therefore, cautiously abstain from offering any remarks at present on a question that was appointed for discussion on an early day. If, however, he carefully abstained from entering upon topics that would soon be discussed, he hoped no one would suppose that, on that account, he felt

however, to reserve his opinions for the occasion, when he could state them more at length than it would be proper to do now. His object in rising was to present two petitions. The first was from the University of Oxford. The right hon. gentleman proceeded to read the substance of the petition, which prayed that no further concessions might be made to the Roman Catholics. The next petition which he should present, was attended with circumstances which claimed the peculiar consideration of the House. It came from the undersigned Protestant noblemen, gentlemen, and landed proprietors of Ireland. He believed there were no less than one thousand two hundred signatures attached to it. Among them were the names of several noblemen. and persons of the highest rank and station in Ireland, who were now discharging their several duties as magistrates, grand jurors, &c. The names of twenty-seven peers were also attached to it; and he was sure he should not overstate the amount of property in the possession of the petitioners, when he said that it could not be less than 1,000,000. sterling, annually. He had a personal knowledge of several of the petitioners; and he would appeal to any who differed from him in opinion as to the Roman Catholic question, whether any set of men could be found of greater worth, credit, and integrity. When he stated that twentyseven Irish peers had signed this petition, he might add, that every man whose name was attached to it was a resident land-owner. Every one who did not come within that class, however high his rank or fortune, was excluded from joining in this petition. No persons were more interested in the welfare of Ireland than the petitioners. Not a sentence in the petition could be traced to any hostile feeling. No acerbity of language was used. The petitioners merely prayed for a continuance of the laws by which Roman Catholics were excluded from power; and they proceeded to state the grounds on which they conceived that continuance necessary. He was glad to be selected as the channel through which this petition was to be presented to the House. He could not look at the names subscribed to it, without recollecting how many of them deserved well of their country, on account of the public services which they had ren-.

dered to it as magistrates; and how many of them were entitled to the admiration and respect of all those who came in contact with them in private life, on account of their many amiable and valuable qualities. He was, therefore, grateful to them for having selected him as the organ to make their wishes known to the Commons House of Parliament on this all-important subject.

Lord Nugent presented the petition of the Roman Catholics of Great Britain, praying to be relieved from the legal disabilities under which they laboured at present. In presenting it, the noble lord stated, that upon several previous occasions he had presented to the House petitions from that portion of his majesty's subjects which had now intrusted him again with the duty of representing their case to Parliament, and as they had no new grievance to complain of, they had not introduced any new matter into the substance of their petition. That petition was signed by twenty-three thousand persons, and might, had it been deemed necessary, have been still more numerously signed. He did not, however, press it on the consideration of the House, so much on account of the numbers who had signed it, as on account of the injustice under which they suffered. If, instead of being the petition of the Catholic aristocracy and proprietary of the country, the petition had been the petition of but one individual, and that individual of the obscurest description, he should have felt it to be his duty to call the attention of parliament to the singular grievances under which he described himself to labour. The petitioners, however, deserved the regard of the House, on account of their being distinguished by their rank, their property, their learning, and their unwearied and unimpeached loyalty. They said, that the restrictions were imposed upon them originally under false pretences and for false objects, and were now continued under pretences and for objects equally false. They desired the House to consider the question of emancipation, not as an Irish but as a British question; and requested him to state to it, that they had put forth two declarations, which were appended to their petition, one containing an explanation of the manner in which they paid allegiance to the king, and another containing an explanation of their religious tenets, as

far as they affected their politics. The originals of those declarations were placed in the British Museum, where the original charter, which secured the liberties of England was also placed, signed by the ancestors of some of the very men whose names were subscribed to the present petition. The petitioners stated, that they came before the new parliament with a sanguine hope, that their complaints would be listened to, and their grievances redressed. They acknowledged with gratitude the justice which they had already met with from the House of Commons, and added, that their confidence in it was increased by a knowledge acquired during the late elections of the increase of liberal feelings in all parts of England. They asked to be relieved from the consequences of the bloody Popery code, which had been originally enacted without reason, and was now retained without necessity. They prayed for emancipation, not only for themselves, but for every species of dissenters from the Established Church, who were liable to any disqualifications on account of their religious tenets.

The Petition was brought up and read; setting forth,

"That the Petitioners beg leave to represent that, on the opening of the first session of Parliament, they feel it their duty to renew the application they have more than once successfully made to the House, to pass a Bill for the repeal of the penal and disabling Laws under which they yet labour; that they worship the same God, are liege subjects to the same King, and live under and acknowledge the same Constitution as the House; the friends of the country are theirs; her enemies are theirs; in her fleets and armies they render her important services; to her support they essentially contribute; there is no class of British subjects upon whose attachment and active co-operation the House themselves have greater reliance; that the Petitioners have beheld, and continue to behold, with unspeakable satisfaction, the steady and regular advance which the cause of Catholic emancipation has made, and is making, in the public mind; during the late election, attempts were made to prejudice the electors against them and their friends, by the cry of no Popery;' but the places in which it served those who used it were few; in several it was received with the most marked disdain; may every dis

ingenuous artifice of controversy, by whom or against whomsoever used, and every measure that tends to disunite, to keep up animosity, or to prejudice one portion of subjects against another, similarly fail! that the Petitioners have declared, and they again declare, that they bear animosity to no individual of any communion, sect, or party; that they embrace all their countrymen and fellow-subjects, whatever be their religious denomination, as friends and brethren; and that they most sincerely and fervently wish to see them all united in the participation of every civil right and blessing which they solicit for themselves; that they have always been willing to lay before the public, in the fullest and most explicit manner, all their religious doctrines, and to disclaim every anti-civil or anti-social principle imputed to them; for this purpose they have often referred to authentic documents, in which their religious tenets are to be found, and have often printed, published, and circulated them; and that among these documents are the answers of the Foreign Universities to the questions suggested by Mr. Pitt; that very recently (the Petitioners now mention a fact to which they most earnestly solicit the attention of the House) an exposition of their religious principles, framed by the English and Scottish Catholic Prelates, has been laid before the public; that they have presented copies of this declaration to his most excellent Majesty, to his illustrious Brothers, to the Cabinet Ministers, to the Prelates of the Established Church, and to the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow, and St. Andrew's; and that they have deposited the original in the British Museum; they respectfully take leave to annex a copy of it to their present Petition, and to refer to it as a full and explicit exposition of the religious tenets of the Roman Catholics, on points therein mentioned; together with this Declaration, they have extensively circulated among their Protestant fellow countrymen, an Address, expressing their adherence to it, calculated, to the best of their judgment, to remove any unfavourable impression existing in their minds, respecting their civil and social principles, and laying before them a brief statement of the grievances which the Roman Catholics of Great Britain suffer by the present state of the penal laws beyond

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any other class of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects; they beg leave to annex a copy of that Address also, to their humble Petition; they further request the House to consider the progress of public opinion on the Continent in favour of civil and religious liberty; they beg leave to mention, that the late Marquess of Londonderry announced in the House of Commons, in the debate on the Catholic Relief Bill, on the 28th day of February, 1821, that the only one question upon which the Congress of Vienna were unanimous, was that of doing away with distinctions and preferences on account of religion;' that it has always been asserted by their countrymen, that in wise, good, and liberal councils our country has taken the lead, and directed the opinion of the world; will this appear in her perpetuating Laws which all allow to have been enacted during a national delirium; by all the feelings which bind the House to their country and their countrymen; by every reason which makes it wise to consolidate their interests, to extinguish disunion, and annihilate discontent among them; by the justice and humanity which every Government owes to every class of subjects; by the undeniable truth, that equal openings and equal rewards are due, by the Laws of God and man, to equal industry and equal merit; and above all, by the sacred precept of the God of all Christians, that

all things which you would that men should do to you, you should do also to them :' as Roman Catholics suffering under the operation of unjust and oppressive laws; and as British subjects, jealous of the fair reputation of their country, which these Laws disgrace; the Petitioners most earnestly pray the House to take their case into their consideration, and to pass a Bill which, by repealing every Law which imposes any declaration, oath, or test, relating to religious opinions as a qualification for holding civil office, or enjoying civil rights, may relieve them from every penalty and disability yet remaining in force against them, and may wipe away the stigma of intolerance which now attaches to their country."

Ordered to lie on the table.

GRANT TO THE DUKE AND DUCHESS oF CLARENCE.] On the order of the day for the second reading of the Duke and Duchess of Clarence's Annuity Bill,

Sir R. Heron observed, that the duke

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