University of
Aberdeen.

is more useful even than lecturing: at the same time I give demonstrations regularly three times a week, and if I am well supplied with subjects, four or five times a week. The Physiology is generally given at the concluding part of the course; and we always demonstrate and go Marischal College. over the different parts as we go along.

Dr. Ewing.

Is it your opinion, from the experience you have already had, that there is a prospect of establishing a complete course of medical education in this town?-I rather think so; Anatomy has been always the most efficient class here, and I think a course of Surgery 20 September 1827. might be kept up. The medical school, and the Anatomy in particular, has been improving for the last three years, for there never was such a numerous class in Aberdeen as during that period. I think that classes for the practice of Medicine, for Surgery, and for Anatomy, could be established here; and Midwifery perhaps, and Chemistry. Perhaps the practice and theory of Medicine might be joined. An elementary view only of Physiology is given in my course, along with Anatomy: a full view of Physiology is the same as the Institutes of Medicine, which is given as a separate course in some places. I think the following courses might be established here, viz. Anatomy and Physiology, the Theory and Practice of Medicine, Surgery, Midwifery, Chemistry, Botany, and perhaps Materia Medica: those are the classes that would be most efficient, and I think they might be established here.

If it be found that the study of Anatomy can be advantageously prosecuted here, is not the chief obstacle to the establishment of a medical school thereby removed?-Yes. Anatomy is the principal thing; many other things the students think they may get by reading; but that is a science that they must begin with, as the foundation of their whole profession; it is a demonstrative thing, and which they cannot learn in any other way but by attending to demonstrations and dissections: but the other classes could also be kept up well enough. Are you a manager of the Infirmary?—No, I am a physician in the Infirmary. Would there be any difficulty in establishing good clinical lectures here?—I dare say they might be established here; they have been proposed of late, and tried.

What attendance was there upon them?—There has been only one course given this last year: I think there were about 20 or upwards attending it. I have been about nine years in the hospital, and I tried clinical lectures when I came first for two sessions, and there was not much encouragement; but there are some new regulations in some of the Colleges, by which that course is required, and therefore the students are more willing to attend it. Did you deliver the course last session?-No, Dr. Blaikie did.

Do many young gentlemen studying Medicine attend the lectures?-Most of them do. Have they access to see the patients?—Yes; they go round with the physician and surgeon, and see the patients and operations; indeed, in a small provincial hospital like this, they see them better, and to more advantage, than in the larger hospitals, for the first part of their study: they get nearer the patients; they are more conversant with them, and they are all made dressers through the hospital.

Are the more difficult operations performed in that hospital?-They are all performed here, frequently; and there are a great many of them, on account of this being a shipping port and a manufacturing place, and having quarries in the neighbourhood; there are a great many accidents, and there are a great many capital operations.

Are the students admitted to see them?—The whole of them.

Do you think that a class of Midwifery might be advantageously established here?I think Midwifery might be established very well: there is one thing against it; they have not a lying-in hospital here, but perhaps that could be got up. I have no doubt, however, the students would attend Midwifery, if properly conducted.

Are there any other arrangements that you would suggest, for the accomplishment of the object of establishing a medical school here ?--I do not recollect anything. With regard to the lectures, it has been very up-hill work indeed: they are very little supported. When I began first, I dare say I lectured four or five years, and I was out of pocket, instead of deriving emolument from it; since that time, the students have been more numerous. We are in great want of proper accommodation for the purpose. I have a small room, which I must make the class-room and the dissecting-room, and everything. It is a small place, built in the corner of the College-court, and often when I have to go in and lecture, the smell is very bad, and the air so tainted as to be unhealthy. It is impossible to keep it clean, as there is no separate place for the dissections: if I had got room for them, I could get more subjects. I find I have got more the last two or three winters, but I have little room for them; better accommodation is one thing that I have to recommend. Then you think that a small convenient theatre of Anatomy would be necessary?I am sure that it is absolutely necessary, if an Anatomical class is to be carried on; for it is very injurious to the health to be in a room which is in that state: if you hurt your finger or any part, it becomes very dangerous, when the constitution is previously deteriorated; so that some little theatre would be necessary. I conceive also, that if it could be made a Professorship, with a suitable salary, and thus made more efficient, it would be desirable. With the College of Surgeons, just now, it is the same thing whether the certificate come from a Professor or Lecturer: if the students have attended certain courses of lectures at certain schools it is sufficient; they have admitted them from the Aberdeen school, the same as others; and several of the Examinators at London told me and some of the Professors of this College, that the young men did as well from this place as any other. There is seldom an instance of any of them being rejected. They are in general very industrious here; I believe poverty stimulates some of them to that, and, from their own industry, I am sure they make considerable progress.

Do they commonly take all the classes, including Dr. Skene's, in one session?-Many of them attend several of the classes during the same winter.

No. IV.

Q

University of
Aberdeen.

Marischal College.
Dr. Ewing.

Do they generally prosecute their medical studies here for two sessions?-A good many of them take three courses of Anatomy, and two courses of dissections. Some of them are here four or five years; perhaps they have got a perpetual ticket, which lasts them as long as they stay, and some of them stay four or five years, and take three courses of Anatomy, one or two of Chemistry, and the same of Surgery.

Do they in that case pass at the Royal College of London without any other Anatomy 20 September 1827. than what they have studied here?-Without any other. They require one year of an Hospital, three courses of Anatomy and Physiology, two of Dissections, and one of Surgery; that is the requisite curriculum for the Royal College of Surgeons, and I believe now Midwifery is taken in: so that they take the whole here, and then they pass at the College of Surgeons. They are generally more than one year attending the hospital here, because they have a perpetual ticket, which is only five guineas (there is no other ticket given). And as they only require one year at the College of Surgeons at London, they have attended more than what is requisite.

Professor French.

Do you think it would be for the advantage of the medical school here, if the Professor of Medicine and the Professor of Chemistry lectured every day?—I do not see any particular advantage there is one inconvenience, that they can hardly get hours to lecture in; for instance, I used to lecture every day, but I must have the forenoon to get the day-light; and now it would interfere with some of the other classes to lecture every day.

Are the medical students attending the Philosophy classes at the same time?-Some of them are. Just now the Chemistry and the Anatomy are at the same hour; therefore, there must be intermediate days.

Do you think it is desirable that the medical students should have an opportunity of attending the Philosophy classes at the same time, or would it not be better that the latter should have been gone through previously?-It would be better that they should have gone through the Philosophy classes in general. I am not sure if we could accomplish to lecture every day, even in that way: with regard to Anatomy, we might not always have materials to go on; but when I happen to have subjects, I lecture oftener, according to circumstances.

Then, without the institution of additional classes, this College could not give the degree of Doctor of Medicine to persons who had studied here, according to their existing regulations?—I do not know the regulations. As a lecturer, I do not join with the Professors, and I have nothing to do with the degrees. The greater part of the students that study here, prepare for Surgeons' Hall; they are going to London, and to the public service; some few of them go to Edinburgh, and finish there.-[The Witness withdrew.]

[The Minutes of Evidence having been sent to the Witness for verbal correction, he requested leave to add the following observations] :

“I think it necessary to state the following circumstances with regard to the Anatomical class, as they did not occur to me during my examination. It is much more laborious, and requires more time than any of the other medical classes, as the lectures cannot be written out and read as in them: they must be given viva voce, and therefore require daily preparation. The lecturer must also attend to the dissecting-room through the day, which, with the other business of the class, interferes seriously with the avocations of a practitionermore particularly, as at present we cannot afford any assistant or regular dissector, as they have in most other places. It is also the only class that incurs any considerable expenses, as for subjects, &c. &c. As there are no Anatomical preparations belonging to the College, I had to purchase and make, at a considerable expense, all those which are for the class, with the exception of some which belonged to Dr. Skene, of which he has allowed me the use. I have also lost several valuable preparations, for want of a proper place in the College to keep them: there is no room at present sufficiently dry, and we have the inconvenience of carrying them for some distance to the class-room when wanted. There are many other incidental expenses, which must fall upon the Anatomical lecturer, as for drawings, engravings, casts, expensive books of plates, renewing and keeping up dry and wet preparations. I have hitherto defrayed all these at my own proper expense, without receiving the least assistance from the College. I therefore hope it will not be deemed presumption in me to suggest, that these circumstances of labour, loss of time to a practitioner, and expense, should be taken into the account, if any endowment be contemplated for the support of that class."

George French, Esq., M.D., called in and examined.

You are Professor of Chemistry in this University?—I am.

Do you concur in all the Answers which have been returned by the Senatus Academicus to the Commissioners ?-I do.

Will you have the goodness to state to the Commissioners the method you pursue in giving your course of lectures?-The distinction of Chemistry from two other branches of Natural Philosophy, Mechanics and Physiology. The power by which substances act chemically upon one another is explained, and its effects illustrated by experiments. The powers by which substances are chemically separated are explained and illustrated by experiments. The different chemical operations are explained; directions given for performing them, and illustrated by experiments. The nature and effects of caloric, or heat, explained and illustrated by experiments. The principal processes con

nected with the different branches of Practical Chemistry, as connected with saline substances, metals, and earths, are actually performed in the class on moderate quantities of materials. Phosphorus and ether are prepared. The application of Chemistry to arts, manufactures, pharmacy, and agriculture, so far as concerns the examination of soils, is pointed out in the course.

Do you examine the students, or only lecture?-Only lecture. The course has never been received into the regular course of the College, and the students are not examined on it before being graduated. It is generally attended by a great many persons in the town, who are not students in the College.

Are any of those individuals attending the class, who are not students, people engaged in trade or manufacture ?-Yes, very often, particularly at the beginning of the course. There were a good many people attended, that belonged to the Cotton Printfield Company, and still a good many people of that kind attend.

How often do you lecture?-Three times a week.

At what hour do you lecture?—At one o'clock.

Do you find three days a week sufficient to go through your subject ?-It has been the way of the course. The course might be longer, but the students really always expect, in the Chemistry class, to see a great deal; now we have not apparatus to fill up a much longer course; they do not attend, unless they see experiments, or something of that kind, going on.

Is your apparatus very imperfect here ?-Exceedingly imperfect, and our accommodation exceedingly bad.

Supposing a proper apparatus was procured, and sufficient accommodation provided, would it not be desirable that the lecture should be given every day?—It might; but two moderate courses, I believe, are better than one very long course. There is an observation of Lavoisier upon that subject, which I shall read to the Commissioners. Lavoisier says, "Very little of Chemistry can be learned in the first course, which is hardly sufficient to make the language of the science familiar to the ears, or the apparatus familiar to the eyes." Now, this course is made so that it contains two courses: one is intended for the third year of the College, when they have a Mathematical class to attend, besides the Philosophy class; and is intended as a sort of introduction; and the second course is laid out for the fourth year of the College, when they have no other class to attend but the Philosophy class. Do you mean, that in the same session your course is divided into two?-The same course is repeated; the second session, it is the same course over again.

Is that attended by a different description of students?-No; the same ought to attend the two courses.

Is that your present practice?-As many as we can get to attend the second course do attend, but there are very few of them.

Is that during the summer?-It is one class; but the same student is wished to attend the preliminary class one session, in order to make it a little familiar to him, as he is not supposed to understand very well at first; then he attends the second course, and he understands it a great deal better.

That is to say, he attends the same course a second year ?-He attends another year the

same course.

But your course of five months is not broken down into a short one, repeated twice over? -No, the course is just the same as the College session, about five months; and the same is repeated over again the following year, because they are supposed, in the first course, not to understand very well, but to understand much better the second year.

Have the students that attend your class received any previous knowledge of Chemistry in any of the classes of the College ?—I do not think they have; at least, not by regular course; it is not mentioned as any part of the course of any of the Professors.

You do not think, in point of fact, that Chemistry is taught in any other class?—I do not know; certainly I have been told that Dr. Davidson mentions a good deal of Chemistry in his class, but I never asked him particularly about it.

Would you consider it of advantage that there should be some preliminary class of that kind, or would you think it more advantageous that they should commence the study of Chemistry with yourself?-I think it unnecessary, as they have that preliminary course of mine, as they attend two courses with me.

Can you explain the reason of the falling off of the class last year?-It has always fluctuated very much from 12 to 30; I do not know any particular reason for it.

Have you any suggestion to make to the Commissioners, connected with your class ?-We want very much a much more perfect apparatus than we have, and the class-room is a most miserable place; very probably, if the apparatus were made more perfect and more respectable, and we had a more respectable place to meet in, we should have a larger class. There has never been any public fund for an apparatus.

Have you any other suggestions to offer to the Commissioners, connected with the University?-I do not recollect any.

Do you think that a course of medical instruction could be established here ?-I believe it will be difficult; the Chemical class is not at all meant as a Medical class solely; it was from the very first meant as a branch of Natural Philosophy. No doubt, medical students are much benefited by attending it.

Do you think that a course of medical instruction ought to be instituted here?-Except the Anatomical class, I doubt it.

You are not sanguine in your expectations with respect to that?-I am not.-[The Witness withdrew.]

University of
Aberdeen.

Marischal College.

Professor French.

20 September 1827.

University of
Aberdeen.

Marischal College.

Students. 20 September 1827.

Mr. Lawrence Davidson, Mr. Robert Harvey, and Mr. George Morgan, called in and examined.

[The Petition transmitted to the Commissioners on the 7th of September 1827 was shown to the Witnesses.]

The Commissioners understand that you were parties to that petition ?—Mr. Davidson. We were.

It appears that you desire that the session should be lengthened?—Yes, and also that lectures should be given daily. Are you aware that, when lectures have been attempted to be delivered daily, the attendance has so fallen off as to make it impossible for the lecturer to proceed?—Mr. Harvey. I am not aware of such an attempt having been made.

Are the lectures delivered three times a week?-Mr. Davidson. They are not delivered three times a week. Dr. Skene's were never delivered three times a week regularly. Dr. Skene met generally about twice a week; and he not only changed the days, but he changed the hours of attendance, so that no student could attend regularly, because he had other duties to attend to, and he (Dr. Skene) made it quite optional for himself what hours he met with them, and also the days.

Were any fees taken by that class?-There were.

What session do you allude to, with respect to Dr. Skene changing his hours?—The ticket I have got of his lectures was in 1824-5.

Did he deliver lectures last session ?—I was not in town last session; none of us three were here then. Mr. Harvey. None of us were here; but I understand he attempted it.—Mr. Davidson. The session of 1825-6 he attempted it, but the students did not attend; he stated to his former class that he never would give certificates, and the Medical classes are of no use without certificates.

You state, in your petition, that in the departments of Surgery, Anatomy, Materia Medica and Pharmacy, Midwifery, Botany, and Chemistry, as lectures are given only three times a week, for courses of five months, or even shorter, the students annually run a risk of having their tickets of attendance in Aberdeen rejected by the Colleges of Surgeons, and by the Army and Navy Medical Boards: do you know, in point of fact, that those tickets have ever been rejected on that account?-They have not been rejected; but they are obliged to have double courses instead of single courses, as in Edinburgh; and at Edinburgh they require two courses of Anatomy instead of one, in consequence of the lectures being only three times a week.

Does not Dr. Ewing frequently lecture oftener than three times a week, when he has subjects?—He did several years, when I was here.

When did you cease to attend?—I was in London the winter before last, and the last winter in Edinburgh; but, during the summer, I have been attending the classes here. Are the Medical lectures here continued during the summer also?-There are some of them.

Which of them?-There are clinical lectures in the Infirmary given during the summer, and also lectures on Midwifery.

Are they given by private teachers?—Mr. Frazer was appointed by King's College to give lectures on Midwifery, but Dr. Blaikie was requested by the students to open a class, and he got a full class. Mr. Frazer, I believe, only got one, besides his own apprentices, although he was the College lecturer.

What attendance had Dr. Blaikie ?—He had upwards of 30.

Did he lecture daily?-Four times a week: that was a private course.

Does Dr. Dyce lecture?-No; he was appointed to lecture at the College once, but he never got a class.

Was it in consequence of the present state of the medical school here that you went to London to finish your studies?-In so far, it was; I intended at once to pass the Surgeons' Hall there, but there has never been an instance of a student passing wholly upon Aberdeen tickets.

Where did you pass ?-I passed in Edinburgh last winter. I have here a letter from Dr. Alison, which will show the value that is put upon the Aberdeen tickets.-[The Witness produced the same.]

Are any of the other gentlemen that signed the petition students at present ?—They are all students at present that have signed it.

Do you feel confident that daily lectures would be attended by the medical students in Aberdeen ?—I have no doubt of it, if the fee was not made oppressive; if it was made proportionate to the other Universities.

What fee is paid to Dr. Skene ?-I believe it was two guineas; but, as I was a Professor's on, he took no fee from me.

In order to qualify for your degree, were yon obliged either to produce double tickets of attendance here, or to attend the same classes over again at Edinburgh ?-The letter I have produced explains that. It is as follows:-" SIR, The Medical Faculty agree to receive your Aberdeen certificates as sufficient attendance on Anatomy, Surgery, Botany, Hospital and Clinical lectures, and as entitling you to come forward as a candidate for graduation, after one winter's session of University study here; but it will be necessary for you to attend here, or in some other University, the classes of Materia Medica, Chemistry, the Theory of Medicine, and Practice of Medicine, of which your certificates of attendance at Aberdeen are not sufficient, according to our statutes; you will likewise be so good as to

procure a certificate from Aberdeen of the clinical lectures which you attended having been of fully five months' duration.”

Have you attended twice those classes, certificates of which you received?-I have, except Dr. Blaikie's, which is an additional class here; there is not one corresponding to it in Edinburgh; Dr. Monro gives both Anatomy and Surgery conjointly.

University of
Aberdeen.

Marischal College.

Students.

Did you accordingly attend those classes over again in Edinburgh, which Dr. Alison mentions?—I attended some of them. If the Medical classes here had been on a proper 20 September 1827. footing, I should not have been required to go back to Edinburgh; and if they were put upon a proper footing, I should not require to go back this winter. Mr. Morgan has a similar letter from Dr. Alison.

(To Mr. Morgan.) Have the goodness to read the letter you received?-It is as follows:-"Heriot Row, 17th November 1826.-SIR, I have laid your letter before the Medical Faculty, and I am desired to inform you, that your attendance on the Medical classes in Aberdeen will be held, first, as bringing you under our regulations of 1823, and of which you can have a copy from the Janitor; secondly, as entitling you to come forward after two winter sessions more of University medical studies; and, thirdly, as sufficient attendance on Anatomy and Surgery, and on Botany, provided that the course of lectures on Botany lasts three months, and that the lectures are delivered daily."

Have you attended the Anatomy and Surgery for two courses in Aberdeen ?-Dr. Ewing's and Dr. Blackie's, I have; but I have tickets from the College of Surgeons in Dublin, which I showed him, and which he said he would recognise.-Mr. Davidson. At the same time that I presented my tickets, they were backed by London ones, which are always taken as something additional, if there be a slight deficiency; they take the London tickets as strengthening the others, if there be any slight deficiency.

(To Mr. Morgan.) Did you attend those two courses in the same session?—No; I attended Dr. Blaikie's the first session, and Dr. Ewing's the second.

Those two sessions were considered as equal to one session at Edinburgh ?—Yes.

The Commissioners understand, that in addition to the classes he teaches, which are appointed by the College, he also has a class of Midwifery?-That was at the request of the students this summer, in consequence of Mr. Fraser's appointment.

Are the 42 students who have signed this petition all regularly prosecuting their medical studies?-Mr. Davidson. All regularly.

Are there others in Aberdeen besides those ?-There are; but there were very few in Aberdeen at the time the petition was prepared. It was immediately after the summer classes; and at that time in general they leave the town for about a month or two; and, besides, a number of the Aberdeen students go to Greenland in the summer time. There are perhaps nearly a hundred, in one way or another, in Aberdeen altogether. Do they go as surgeons in the Greenland ships?—Yes, some of them.

Is it understood among the students of Medicine, that, if the Medical classes were taught during six complete months, they would be regularly attended to the end of the session?It is; they do not leave town, as the other students do, at the end of the five months' course which the other classes have; they almost all of them, except those that go to Greenland, continue in the town, from the clinical lectures in the Infirmary and the Midwifery lectures being given in the summer-time..

Were all those 42 students, who have signed the petition, actually in Aberdeen at the end of the summer session?-They were.

If the desire of this petition is concurred in by the other medical students who are really intended for the medical profession, after the session commences, could not an application be made, signed by the whole, so that the Commissioners may see the number of those students?-There is one objection to that, that this petition has been taken as a personal affront to Dr. Skene; and a number of his apprentices, and also the apprentices of the others, are frightened from coming forward now, from it being taken up as a personal thing.

Is Dr. Skene a physician or a surgeon?-He is a physician of Edinburgh.

Were there any other summer classes attended at Aberdeen, besides the Midwifery ?The Botany; and, this summer, Dr. Henderson lectured on Materia Medica, which is a winter course; but from the difficulty of finding an hour to accommodate all the students, or some other reason, he made it a summer course.

What was the attendance upon him?-I did not attend him this session.- Mr. Harvey. There was a considerable number.

Are the lectures delivered daily in the Botany class?—Mr. Davidson. No, only three times a week, for a little more than four months; whereas in Edinburgh they require them daily for three months, so that it requires a double course here.

Including the next session, what will be the number of sessions altogether that you will have attended before completing your medical studies?—I commenced my medical studies in April, 1822, and I have been attending Dr. Ewing's class ever since, as I was an apprentice of his, except in this last winter; and the winter before last winter, I was in Edinburgh; and the winter before, I was in London.

Do the medical students in general attend the other classes in the College?-Almost all

of them.

Do they commence during the fourth, or during the third session ?-Some of them even during the first, but generally about the third.

About what age may they be when they commence during the first session?-Their ages are very different; in general, the students here are very young.

Are you of sufficient age to receive the degree of Doctor of Medicine at Edinburgh?