University of
Aberdeen.

Marischal College.

Professor Skene.

19 September 1827.

all appointed lecturer on Anatomy; I then opened the course, between 20 and 30 students attending it. The time and trouble requisite in carrying on the course properly was such that I could not continue it regularly; but I was able to go on, giving demonstrations every winter; and the certificates I gave were received at Surgeons' Hall, merely as proofs of the students having seen anatomical demonstrations; and that plan went on till lately, when this plan was devised, that the Colleges should go together-one College supporting those appointed by the other, and having the nomination alternately; and there was a division made of the labour, and a certain duty assigned to each individual; but at that time, as I mentioned already, we found that there were not a sufficient number of students to enable the lecturers to go on.

In what year was that arrangement made?-I do not recollect.

Supposing a course of lectures established,would the avocations of a professional gentleman of extensive practice interfere with the regular discharge of his professional duty ?—It might occasionally interfere with it, particularly if he were engaged much in country practice, but still I do not see that he would be so often away as to make the course extremely irregular on that account. That was found to be the case at Edinburgh. The late Dr. Gregory was very extensively employed in practice, and he was at the same time in the habit of going to the country when called there; but I never observed any irregularity in consequence of that. Were you in the habit of examining the students in your class?-That plan was not introduced here; but I would approve of it by all means.

What was the fee paid at your class?—The only year I took fees, two guineas was the fee I charged; the other years I took none.

Was it in the third session of your lectures that the fee was paid?—In the second.

Had the exaction of the fee any effect upon the number of the students?—I suppose it had an effect in lessening the number.

Looking to the state of the medical school in this University, do you think that the subject of the Practice of Physic was the best to select, seeing that it is rather considered as the last class to be taught?-Yes, I think it was the best to select, because you might, in the course of it, endeavour to make up deficiencies in other respects, by going over the previous subjects, though it would be a great advantage to have separate courses.

Did those lectures embrace more of elementary instruction than is generally given in the course?-No; they were in a great measure practical.

Had any lectures been delivered from your Chair before you were appointed?—Not that ever I heard of. I do not think there was anything in the shape of regular instruction till I opened an anatomical course in 1803; and, in carrying that on, the College having no funds to assist me, I was obliged to build a small place at my own expense as a class-room.

Did you experience much impediment from the difficulty of getting subjects?—I found it much the same here as elsewhere; but the labour and the difficulty of carrying on an anatomical class can only be conceived by those who have undergone it, particularly where you have no assistance in making preparations, and have no collection.

Is there no collection of that description at Aberdeen?-There is no collection. The lecturer on Anatomy now has a sufficient number of preparations to enable him to go on. He has what I had provided for myself; but there is no proper collection belonging to the College-indeed, there is no place where you could keep a collection in the College.

Did you suggest to the Senatus Academicus of this or the other College the propriety of not allowing the students to attend those classes till their philosophy courses were completed? -I have mentioned it at different times to many of the members of the Senatus, but they have no power of carrying it into effect a student may commence his studies when he pleases. All that they can do in that case is to encourage that plan.

At what hour was your class?-At seven o'clock in the evening.

Would not the object to which you have now adverted be obtained, if the lectures were given during the hours when the junior classes were taught?-It might be the case, provided. we had no medical students but those who have already attended their philosophical courses; but now, many of the medical students are at the same time carrying on the other branches of their education.

Are the Commissioners to understand that many settle in the country as general practitioners without more instruction than what you have stated arises from those lectureships? -No; the better part of those gentlemen who settle here in the country have a surgeon's diploma, either from London, or Edinburgh, or Glasgow; and a great number of those practising in different parts of the country are from the army and navy.

Does the class of Chemistry embrace Pharmacy at all?-Yes, there is a part of it on Pharmacy; but on that subject I cannot give so full information as the Professor of Chemistry

can do.

Is it prescribed as any part of the curriculum of the general students?-No; it does not come into the general curriculum, except such part of Chemistry as the Professor of Natural History may bring in, in his course.

Do you intend to open a class the next session ?-I intend so.

Are the greater proportion of the students attending these lectureships resident in the town? -Those from the country come in with a view of remaining in the town during the time of their apprenticeship.

Therefore an extension of the session would not bear so hardly upon them as upon the others?—It would not bear so hardly upon them as upon the other students, who have the greatest difficulty in meeting the expense of residing here during the winter. To enable them to pass the examination at any of the Colleges, it is necessary that they should attend an hospital, which implies their residing in the vicinity of it.

Has not the Infirmary been enlarged of late ?-There have been some additional wards and other alterations, making it more convenient; but there is accommodation for upwards of 100 patients, and the average number is, I suppose, 80 or 90.

Are students allowed to walk the wards of that hospital?-In that respect there is everything in their favour, because a ticket once taken out serves them as many years as they choose to attend. The ticket is five guineas, but it is not for a limited time. The expense at some of the hospitals at London may be from 18 to 20 guineas for six months, and at Edinburgh they may renew their tickets annually; but the same ticket serves them here throughout.

Have they the advantage of the clinical lectures for that ticket?-There is a separate fee for that; but that, like the other parts of the establishment, is merely in its commencement. I am convinced of one thing, that the plan to succeed here is, by not attempting too much at once, and opening too many courses.

Can you state the number that attended the clinical lectures during the last year?—I cannot say exactly, but I suppose from 20 to 30.

Are there many important surgical operations performed in the Hospital?-A great number from this being a sea-port town, and there being a great many manufacturing establishments here, it may be supposed there must be a great many accidents, besides the common average of cases from different parts of the country. There is an hospital now opened at Elgin, but that is only of late, so that they have a great extent of country to get cases from.

All the bad cases from the country are sent in here?-A great number of bad cases are sent in from the country. As far as the Hospital is concerned, there is no want of ample means of improvement for the students here.

Will it be possible to grant a degree of Medicine in this University to a student educated here according to the new regulations, if some alteration does not take place in the lectures? As there are some of the courses not taught here, for instance, the Institutes of Medicine, we could not well receive a candidate who had only studied here; but as the greater proportion of our candidates for degrees are educated elsewhere, we endeavour to take in all the courses that are deemed requisite; and we have endeavoured, as far as possible, to secure a proper preliminary education, by saying, that after a certain time none will be eligible to the degree of M.D. who have not already taken out the degree of A.M.; but that regulation is not to come into force till the year 1830.

Are there any summer courses given by those lecturers?—There are botanical lectures given in the summer-time by Dr. Knight; the clinical course must take in part of the summer season. As that lies under the direction of the managers of the Infirmary, we cannot say so much about it; but I know, that at present there is a plan in agitation to extend it, and make it more full.

Do you think that it would be any hardship upon the students attending the medical classes here to require a previous knowledge of Greek?-By no means; and I think the hardship, if there were any, would diminish every year, because when parents knew that it was necessary, they would endeavour to prepare their children for it. It has no effect whatever in diminishing the number of Divinity students.

Have you any other suggestions to make for the improvement of the medical school at Aberdeen?-None particularly, except one that I may mention. I think it would be of consequence if the medical faculty was strengthened in the University, by having one or two more medical Professors appointed, so as to get them a seat in the Senatus, such as a Professor of Anatomy.

In short, you wish that the teaching of Medicine should be carried on under a regular Professor in the College?—Yes, and to give him a voice and weight in the College. As it is now, you would suppose that the teaching of Medicine had not been in the view of the Founder.

Do you think that the study of Medicine would be promoted or facilitated by a union of the Colleges?—I do not see that the making them one College would have any effect upon it: perhaps, if it were one University, so as to make it one Senatus, it might be of consequence; but to unite both Colleges into one, I think, would not do any good to the medical classes, and would perhaps injure the other classes, by making them too numerous to admit of the mode of instruction by question and answer being carried on.

It is your opinion that the status and dignity of a Professor might induce the gentlemen who are teaching those classes, or others, to devote more time to their lectures, in the face of the obstacles in their way?—Yes, I think it would; and also, it would make the examinations more respectable, by strengthening the Faculty in the number of examinators. As it is at present, the faculty of Medicine consists only of the Professor of Medicine, in a manner; he is assisted in the examination by the Professor of Natural History and Chemistry, and all the Senatus are taken in; but if there were more belonging to the medical faculty, it would be an advantage.

Is it not the case at present, that there is nothing to induce the lecturer to devote his time to the performance of those duties, except the fee ?—Yes; and the fee is so trifling that it is hardly worth consideration. The very name of being Teacher is of some consequence to them; and, being employed in that way, shows the estimation in which they are held; but beyond that, I do not see any other advantage that they have. The lecturers have no other remuneration than the class-fee; the amount and sources of the Professor of Medicine's emoluments are stated in the Return before the Commission.

Have you had any examinations for degrees of Medicine on the more improved system?Yes.

University of Aberdeen, Marischal College.

Professor Skene.

19 September 1827.

University of
Aberdeen.

Will you have the goodness to state how they are conducted?-The application s laid before the Senatus, and they either appear as a body, or appoint a committee to ex mine and then the examination is according to the terms mentioned in the regulations, upon the Marischal College different branches of Medicine, and upon Greek and Latin-such an examination as is

Professor Skene.

19 September 1827.

reckoned sufficient.

Have the examinations ever been in the presence of the Senatus ?-The Senatus has been regularly summoned for different examinations, and generally the greater part have been present at almost every one.

it

How long may those examinations last?-At present there is only one for each candidate ; may last an hour and a half or two hours.

Do you consider it to be a strict examination?-I consider it to be strict examination; such an examination as, I will be bound to say, that a mere empyrical pretender could not go through.

Is the examination in English or in Latin?-In English.

Do you consider that to be the preferable mode of ascertaining the attainments of the candidates?—I consider that a much preferable mode to ascertain the acquirements of the candidates, you have it in your power to know their classical acquirements by other means. Do you require a thesis?-We do not.

When did the improved system commence ?—I cannot say exactly; about two or three years ago; it is mentioned in the Returns.

During the last session it appears that there was but one; do you attribute that to the effect of the regulations?-To the examination. A number of good practitioners, who were perhaps very deserving of a degree, did not like to come forward at the period of life that generally our candidates have attained; they were afraid of part of the examination, and, in consequence of that, much fewer come forward than did some time ago.

Will not the effect of this system necessarily be to raise the character of a degree of M.D.? -It must inevitably have that effect, and has done so already, because no person can possess a degree from Aberdeen without having undergone an examination; and the circumstance of his getting a degree is a proof that he has had a regular education, and that he has profited by it.

Previous to those regulations, were there not merely certificates produced?-Certificates were produced of attendance on such courses as are the subject of examination, but no examinations were deemed necessary.

How is the Library supplied with medical works?-With the more modern publications it is very ill supplied. With some of the older ones, the works of the last century, it is pretty well supplied. There is no fund for it; the only fund they have is the fees paid on medical degrees, and that is put an end to now, and they have no means of supplying it. The books they get down now are the books for the two Colleges from Stationers' Hall; but they are lodged at King's College.

Do many of the medical students apply for the means of reading medical works?—Not in general here; but a great part of them belong to a medical society in Aberdeen, where they have a better medical library.

Are all the medical classes attended in one session, or do you prescribe any particular course?-We prescribe no fixed course; we leave that to the students themselves. There are a great many improvements that might take place in the course of time; but the plan is altogether in its infancy, so that you cannot say whether it is to succeed or not.

Would not the petition that has been shown you rather lead you to think that the students are ready to go on with a more systematic course of study?-I dare say they may think so just now, but in the course of a little time I doubt whether you would find the same eagerness to attend that you would suppose from that petition. One obstacle to it would be the necessary expense; because, if different courses are opened here, there must be some means of remunerating the lecturers. If there be none to remunerate them it is not to be supposed that the business can go on.

Would not the students save the expense of going to other Universities?—Yes; but they look more to the immediate advantage: the greater number commence their studies here, not so much for a medical degree as for qualifying themselves for acting as general practitioners. A great proportion of the students educated here go to the army and navy.

Do they pass the Medical Board in London ?-They pass the Medical Board in London, and they must pass through Surgeons' Hall.

Is your course completed for the army and navy according to the late regulations?-By the late regulations, I do not bear in mind what course is required, but I know that students going up are received for examination every day; they have to go before the Medical Board, and the Medical Board may insist perhaps upon some more courses.

Did you study Medicine at Edinburgh ?-Here, and at Edinburgh, and at London. Were you satisfied with the completeness of the medical course at Edinburgh when you studied there?—I had no reason to be otherwise than satisfied with it at that time. There was not so good an opportunity of learning Anatomy as at London, but they are very much improved in that respect; they have a better supply of subjects, and they are now able to cope with the teachers in London. In fact there was little or no dissection among the

students here.

How long was that ago?-I was there in 1796 and 1797, and graduated in 1799.

Have you any suggestions to offer with regard to the University as to other branches of literature and science?-Nothing particular with regard to other branches; but one subject I would beg that the Commission would take into their consideration, to inquire into the way in which the election of the Rector has been carried on. By the charter it lies with the

students; and, as they are very young, a great proportion of them are very apt sometimes to be rather turbulent, and to lose that respectful attention that they ought to pay to the teachers at the time. But other Professors will be able to give the Commissioners more full information upon it; they can refer them to the minutes kept at those different times.

Is it your opinion that the present system is prejudicial?—I think it is. I think, by the charter, there is reason to suppose the students were further advanced in years at the time when that practice was established, and there was less danger of any turbulence. At present they come so young to the College, and having a right to choose a Rector, they are apt to be misled by others; and at times it is a painful duty to keep them quiet at the elections. Now, without taking the power of election out of their hands, perhaps it could be modified to say that those only should have a voice who are students of a certain standing or a certain age.

At what age do they enter ?-On entering the Greek class a greater proportion, I suppose,

are under than above 14.

Are the students of Divinity allowed to vote?-They have been of late years allowed to vote, not only they, but also the medical students-all the students attending any of the lectures taught here.

Do the medical students matriculate?—Yes.

Are you prepared to recommend any age, or length of attendance, as the proper one to qualify them for voting at the election of Rector?-No; I can only point out what I conceive to be the causes of the confusion that prevails sometimes, without being able to suggest the proper remedy.

Do you conceive that it would be of advantage to give the graduates any interest in the election of the Rector?-No; I think it would be better confined to those who are attending at the time, because they are more interested in the way in which matters are carried on in the College.

When you stated that it was sometimes difficult to keep the students quiet, did you mean at the period of the election, or in consequence of previous meetings?-What I have seen is at

the time of the election.

Is it productive of any more general inconvenience?-It may be; it is easily conceivable. I am not aware that it has produced any bad effects, except that the discussing the matter will lead them into knots and parties; but I had rather refer it to others to speak upon this subject.

At what time does the election take place?—It is about the end of February or the beginning of March.

Would you recommend it to take place either earlier or later than it does at present?-I am not prepared to say that there would be any advantage in changing the time; perhaps it might be as well at the commencement as at the end; but upon that, I must again repeat, that the other Professors must be able to form a better opinion than I can.

Have you ever been present at any of the public examinations of the classes of late years?— I have, since I was appointed.

Are they conducted so as to afford any satisfactory test of the progress of the students?—I think they are, upon the plan which is now adopted.

Has there been a change of late ?—There has.

Are they now in the presence of the Senatus?-The Black-Stone examination is in the presence of the Senatus; and the Master of Arts examination is in the presence of the Senatus.

Is there not a public examination of each class?-That is the Black-Stone examination.
At what period does that take place?-Towards the end of the session.

Is that in the presence of the Senatus?—It is. They have, of late years, adopted entranceexaminations too.

Are those examinations of the Bursars?-Of the Bursars; but it is extended to all the gown students. It is an examination of the students entering for the ensuing session.

It is not stated in the Returns whether it is the intention of that entrance-examination to remit to their former studies young men who may not go through it satisfactorily; is that the case or not?—I believe that to be the intention, to prevent their advancing to the course they have in view.

It would appear, from the minutes of the Rectorial Court held by Mr. Hume, as Rector, which have been transmitted to the Commissioners, that a complaint was made that regular attendance was not given, for the full hour, by the Professors: do you know whether that was well founded?-I recollect the charge being made; but I think they failed in proving it. Perhaps the Professors were in the habit of allowing a few minutes before they called the catalogue; they might give 10 minutes, to allow the students to collect, before they called the catalogue.

You are not aware that there was any systematic diminution of the time ?—I am positively aware that there was no systematic diminution of it.

Did you attend at this College yourself?—I did.

Do you approve of the regulations that have been made since that time, in regard to the use of the Library ?-I do.

You do not think that they bear hard upon the students?-Not, as far as I am able to judge; nor am I aware that they are different from the regulations adopted at other Universities. I understand what they complained of was, insisting upon a deposit for the safety of the books. Now, as we are responsible for the safety of the books, we thought it fair that they should lodge such sum as would pay for replacing them in case they were destroyed. Is the Library only open one hour a week?-I suppose that the printed regulations in the No. IV.

L

University of
Aberdeen.

Marischal College.

Professor Skene.

19 September 1827.

University of
Aberdeen.

Marischal College.

Professor Skene.

19 September 1827.

Rev. J. Melvin.

Returns give all the information that I can with respect to it. The Librarian will be able to give the fullest information with regard to that.

Upon what footing was it when you yourself was a student ?—At the time I was a student I made no great use of the Library; but at any time that we wanted a book we applied to a Professor, and he gave permission to get it.

Does the Librarian always attend himself?-I believe he does.

Has it never been the practice for the porter to give out the books?-It may have been occasionally the practice for the Sacrist to give out books. [The Witness withdrew.]

The Rev. James Melvin, A.M., called in and examined.

You teach the Humanity class in this College?—I am lecturer on Humanity in this College.

You are appointed by the authority of the Senatus Academicus ?-I am.

You are also rector of the grammar-school of this town?—I am rector, or head master of the grammar-school here.

How long have you been lecturer on Humanity?—I have been upon my present footing one session. With a view to the present arrangement, I was appointed, in 1825, assistant to Dr. Davidson, who had taught a Humanity class previously. One Latin class was found to be insufficient, and I was appointed lecturer upon my present footing, and upon my own responsibility, by the Senatus last session.

Will you have the goodness to state in detail to the Commissioners the manner in which you teach your class, the method you pursue, and the works you read?—There are two Humanity classes. I began last session, in the first or junior class, with Horace. When I prescribed the ode that I wished them to prepare, I first of all gave them a general idea of its contents; mentioned to them, as far as is known, the occasion on which it was composed; removed any difficulty that might occur in preparing it; and endeavoured, as far as I could, to possess them of the proper feeling, and make them enter into the spirit of the author. When I came to examine, I first of all required them to read the ode correctly, and translate it as literally as possible. I then required them to tell me the meaning in proper English, and to explain what allusions there were to History, Geography, Antiquities, and Mythology. I required them to scan, and questioned them on the poetical beauties, and other beauties of composition. Sometimes, also, I required them to give me a written translation of the ode, and to make such remarks in writing as might occur to them. In the selecting of the odes I was very much guided by the interest that I thought they would feel in one ode more than in another, and pretty much, too, by a desire to embrace as many different kinds of verse as possible.

Are all the students of the first Humanity class capable of reading Horace?—Not well. Do they understand anything of prosody?-A great many of those who come from the country know nothing of prosody. With these I have to begin at the very elements; and for this purpose I sometimes meet with them at a separate hour. We then read a part of Livy, which we did very much in the same way, only making allowance for the different sort of composition. And besides, a good deal of time was spent in examining written exercises.

Of what nature are those exercises?-They were principally pieces of English to translate into Latin, and pieces of Latin to translate into English.

How often are those exercises prescribed?-The exercises, of one sort or other, were prescribed about once a week.

To what number of the class?-There were about 60 in the class, who all performed the exercises.

Does that complete the studies of the first class?—That embraces the studies of the first class.

What is the course pursued in the second class?—In the second class I began with some of the higher odes of Horace, going over them pretty much in the same way as in the lower class, only entering a little more into critical detail than I found it proper to do with the junior students. After that, I read the sixth book of the Eneid with them, requiring them to understand all the allusions there. I also prescribed exercises of the same kind with those in the first class, only a little longer and a little more difficult.

Is the reading of the second class confined to Horace and Virgil ?—No; it is not necessarily confined to those authors; but I found that I could not advantageously go further during that session.

Is it understood that you possess the same authority in teaching the class, being appointed by the Senatus, as a Professor himself?-I understand so.

Do you exact regular attendance ?-I exact regular attendance and good behaviour. I have a catalogue called, and I insist upon all the tasks being performed.

In the event of any omission or misconduct, what course do you pursue?—I have not to complain of any such thing; I have not had occasion to fine at all.

Would you consider yourself competent to inflict that species of punishment without reporting to the Senatus Academicus?—Yes.

Are the students attending your class solely those that attend the Civil or Natural History class? The first Humanity class is principally attended by the Greek students, and the second Humanity class by those who are attending the Natural History and first Mathematical classes (Dr. Davidson's and Mr. Cruickshank's); but any others that choose are

allowed to enter.

Is the class taught in the College?-It is.