CLAUSE (No. 19.) Persons comforming to fore Bulls, &c. to be exempt from all Penalties of existing Laws against intercourse with Rome. His Majesty, or to the Lord Lieutenant, Lord Deputy or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland (as the case may be); and thereupon the said Instrument shall be returned, sealed up, to the person by whom the same shall have been so transmitted, after being indorsed by the said Senior Ecclesiastical Commissioner alone, and without being inrolled in any office, or having been submitted to any other inspection whatever. And be it further Enacted, That any person or persons in Great going directions in respect to Britain or Ireland, so receiving any such Bull, Dispensation or other Instrument as aforesaid, who shall so deliver the same, or cause it to be delivered, in the Original, or who shall so certify the receipt, and so describe and verify by oath the nature of the said Instrument by him or them received as aforesaid, and whose Cer. tificate and Oath shall be so confirmed and allowed as aforesaid, shall be free and exempt from all pains and penalties whatsoever, to which he or they would be liable by any laws now existing in Great Britain or Ireland respectively, against the receiving and publishing Bulls, Dispensations or other Instruments from the See of Rome, or from any authority or pretended authority under the said See. And be it further Enacted, That any person or persons so receiving any such Bull, Dispensation or other Instrument as aforesaid, and not so delivering or causing to be delivered as aforesaid, either the said original Instrument, or such Certificate of the receipt thereof, accompanied by such Oath as hereinbefore pre scribed; or who shall publish or put in execution, or be wilfully and knowingly concerned in publishing and putting in execution any such Bull, Dispensation or other Instrument as aforesaid, in Great Britain or Ireland, before the same shall have been properly inspected and indorsed as aforesaid; shall be guilty of a Misdemeanor; and shall, in lieu of all pains and penalties to which he or they would be liable by any laws now existing in Great Britain or Ireland respectively, against receiving and publishing Bulls, Dispensations or other Instruments from the See of Rome, or from any authority or pretended authority under the said See, be liable to be sent out of the United Kingdom in manner as hereinbefore directed. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, May 21. STIPENDIARY CURATES' BILL.] The order of the day being read, for the third reading of this Bill, The Bishop of London stated at length the objections he entertained against the expediency of this measure. When the Bill was in the Committee, although he suggested the propriety of some amend ments, yet he foresaw that it never could be so modelled as to free it from the objections against its interference with the subordination of the church. In looking at its probable effects, he considered great inconveniences would arise. The subordination of the different ranks, so necessary to the well-being of the ecclesiastical government, would be destroyed; the curate would be at variance with the incumbeut, and a constant interference of the lower with the higher orders of that class of the clergy would be perpetually recurring. In cases where the living was not more than 80%. 100l. and 120l. a year, the whole of that living might, according to this Bill, be appropriated to the use of the curate; and he thought this provision in many instances would have an injurious effect. Besides, it should be recollected that there were 800 livings which were under 50l. per annum. Upon the whole, he expressed his conviction that the part which was intended to leave discretion in the bishops, would not cure its defects, and could not be carried into execution. The right reverend prelate concluded by moving," That the Bill be read this day three months." others; that property he attributed to the church as a whole, but it did not belong as private property to its individual members. Much had been said about the poverty of the church, but the church, in his opinion, possessed riches sufficient; and the only defect was in the unequal distribution; but one of its greatest and indispensable duties was, to provide a resident clergyman to perform the duties of the church in every parish in the kingdom. The principle of the Bill had that calculated to produce the effect. He had said on a former occasion that there was a decrease in the performance of duty by the lower orders of the clergy, and his observations had been commented upon by several of the bishops, with a degree of warmth, but he must say that from his own knowledge in many places, he knew that to be the fact. With respect to the reverend prelates themselves, it was not probable they should know of all the grievances which existed, for in the case of families, all their lordships must be aware that the last person to be apprised of disorderly conduct was the master of the house. The noble and learned lord made many other observations in favour of the Bill. The Lord Chancellor left the woolsack, and shortly addressed the House upon the probable effects of this legislative interference. He was convinced that injurious consequences would result, and that the objects in contemplation would not be at tained. If residence were the intention of this measure, why not enforce the residence of the incumbent, by declaring, that if he did not reside, he should forfeit the living, and then the patron would have an opportunity of presenting one who would be induced to fulfil the intention of the legisla-object in its view, and its provisions were ture. That there should be a clergyman resident in every parish was most desirable; but did the present Bill make any provision for carrying that purpose into actual practice? It provided, that if the incumbent did not reside, the curate should have the whole of the living, if 80l. or 100l. or 120l. per annum : but did it make any provision for the residence of the curate? Suppose the curate, after this interference with the incumbent, should not reside, had any progress been made to enforce or secure the residence of a clergy. man? He could also perceive several mischiefs which might arise. Suppose an incumbent having a living of that sum, which, for non-residence under this Bill, would be wholly consigned to the use of the curate; and suppose he were to become a rich dean, of 1,2001. a year, would he be obliged to resign? He certainly would not; and thus incumbents might, in the first instance, take these small livings for no intention whatever, of rendering or performing the duties, but of getting the living appropriated to the use of some curate; and in this way, the patron would lose his patronage during the life of that incumbent. In other cases most severe hardships might be experienced, where the bishops would be called upon to enforce those enactments against a man, who, for a number of years, had discharged his duty in a parish, to the satisfaction of all; who had, by his economy, brought up and supported a numerous family, and of all others in the diocese, was the most distinguished for the exemplariness and exercise of his virtues. The noble and learned lord concluded by observing, that this measure could have no good consequences, but he was sure it would have many evil ones. Lord Redesdale defended the principle and provisions of the Bill. He did not view the property of the church in the manner it appeared to be considered by The Bishop of Worcester delivered his sentiments in opposition to the Bill. He defended the present system of church livings, and considered any interference of legislative authority, to be of a dangerous nature to the ecclesiastical constitution. The Earl of Liverpool thought he was called upon to state the reasons upon which he intended to support the present measure. He perfectly coincided with many observations made by the right reverend prelate, who had sat down; and there were two points in his noble and learned friend's (lord Redesdale's) speech, in which he did not concur. In respect to the poverty of the church, considering the established church as a whole, he did not perceive that any individual office had more than sufficient to maintain its digni. ty and use. Among the higher orders, be was convinced, that no one enjoyed more than he ought to possess, and among the lower there were a great many who had not what was sufficient and adequate for the due performance of their duty. This subject had occupied his attention long before this time, and he was convinced that some addition was necessary; and when the circumstances of the country would Earl Grosvenor opposed the Bill, on the ground of its being improper to interpose any legislative interference with respect to the performance of duties among the clergy. Lord Grenville defended the propriety and expediency of the Bill, which he considered well calculated to remove one inconvenience particularly complained of, he meant the non-residence of a clergyman in each parish. He professed the highest regard for the church establishment, and on that account was more favourable to the present measure. But with all his regard to the ecclesiastical members of that establishment, great consideration was due to the community. It was actually necessary that a clergyman should reside at his living; for the duties of reading the service and delivering a sermon, though high, were not the highest duties of the profession. The instruction of the young, the visitation of the poor and sick, and the consolation of the dying, were duties of the highest consideration, and could not be performed but by a resident clergyman. permit, the increase of the small livings | power, which was wisely vested in the ought to be taken into consideration. bishops for the benefit of religion and the There was another point in which he did convenience of the church. not agree with his noble and learned friend, and that was the falling off of late years in the performance of duty among the lower orders of the clergy. Now, he had made enquiry into this subject, and though his own knowledge was confined, he had an opportunity of acquiring considerable information from others, and he was led to believe that the performance of duty had improved. Some years ago there might have been a sudden deficiency in the duties of the clergy, for when that false philosophy spread over Europe, and even infused itself into all the establishments of this country, while it overturned the existence of those in another kingdom, had even a tendency to relax and diminish the exertion of ecclesiastical as well as other duties; but when experience had shewn the fallacy of theoretical doctrines, mankind became more inclined to perform those duties closely which were founded upon the wisdom of ancient institutions. He also had to acquiesce in the sentiments of those who were of opinion, that these discussions tended to do good; and one happy effect was, their bringing to the consideration of all clergymen, what were Lord Kenyon, though favourable to the the peculiar duties which belonged to their provisions of this Bill, when first suggested situation. On both these accounts he was in the Committee, yet could not in his of opinion, that residence and performance conscience give it his support, when he of duty among the lower orders of the clergy found that such strong objections against it had increased. The noble earl next pro- were entertained by the right reverend ceeded to praise the system of hierarchy in prelates, whose administration was to this country; it was unequal and of a mixed carry it into execution. complexion, and therefore more consistent with the other parts of our constitution. As to the Bill itself, he thought nothing could be more simple than the principle on which it was founded. Residence was an object desired by all, and in those instances where the living was not adequate to the support of an incumbent and a curate, this Bill provided that it should be appropriated to one only. The noble earl, after speaking generally in favour of this Bill, concluded by saying it should have his support. The Earl of Radnor said, that one object of the Bill had been stated to be the discouragement of sectaries. He did not think it had that tendency; and it would be found, on the division, that the friends of sectaries would vote for it. The Archbishop of Canterbury spoke in disapprobation of the measure; and principally, as it went to limit a discretionary Lord Ellenborough thought the residence of the clergy was most desirable, but did not think this Bill the proper means of enforcing it. The non-residence of the clergy he attributed to the want of houses, the poverty of the benefices, and pluralities. These evils would be increased by the Bill, which he considered a Bill of con fiscation and forfeiture of the smaller livings. Although he was confident it was not the object of the noble lord who originated the Bill, yet he had no doubt but it was the object of several to reduce the smaller livings, so as to render them of little value to their patrons; in order that they might be purchased by a fund, which he knew was busily employed in purchasing livings, in order to fill them with persons most injurious to the church of England, and he would say, to sound Christianity. He thought the moral habits of mankind were in a state of improve ment, caused by the experience that mankind had had of the atrocities committed in consequence of the French Revolution, and of the crimes perpetrated by the Monster who was now on the banks of the Elbe; and it was impossible that those who administered the gospel should not have participated in that improvement. The Earl of Harrowby had hoped that the words introduced, in consonance to the wishes of the noble lord (Grenville) would have obviated all difference of opinion. He stated, that the poverty of the church was not the cause of non-residence, nor of pluralities, for they abounded most in the richest benefices. It was agreed on all hands that non-residence was a great evil; there were many parishes, where all they knew of the person who received the endowments was, that he received them. Curates discharging the duties of four parishes, and galloping about from church to church, was what brought the church into contempt. The House then divided: Against it 37 to make themselves acquainted with the Bill. Mr. Kenrick answered, that he had frequently called the attention of the House to that Bill: he had repeatedly stated that it was entitled to their most serious consideration. It went to effect a most important alteration in the law of the land, and ought to be well weighed before it was adopted; this he had frequently repeated, and he was the more surprised at hearing the hon. and learned gentleman now ask for further time to consider the Bill. As to the amendment making the concealment of effects by the debtor a capital felony, it had been transcribed almost verbatim from the Bankrupt Act; he had, however, no objection to postpone the recommitment of the Bill. Sir Charles Monck objected to the Bill, as rendering that relief to debtors permanent which ought only to be temporary, and conferred at the discretion of the legislature. Sir Samuel Romilly said, he should be sorry if the further consideration of the Bill should be postponed to any period Majority in favour of the Bill-15 that might endanger the final success of HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, May 21. INSOLVENT DEBTORS' BILL.] Mr. Kenrick moved the re-commitment of the Insolvent Debtors' Bill. the measure. It was most important, he thought, that this Bill should pass; and the unhappy persons for whose more immediate relief it was intended had had, in his opinion, their feelings cruelly trifled with, in finding that this Bill had already lingered two months in that House, and that at that moment no attention appeared to have been drawn towards it. Those members must have had their minds little occupied with the subject to which the Bill related, if they indeed imagined that the object of the Bill was temporary. The Bill in question had been for many years under consideration, had at length received the sanction of the highest law authorities, of the present Lord Chancellor, the present Chief Judge of the court of King's Bench, of the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and of the Master of the Rolls. It had passed the other House, and had lain on the table for the last two months, To him the objection of the hon. baronet appeared the strongest recommendation that could be urged in its favour. The Bill was certainly not temporary: it did not interfere to violate the contract beHe tween creditor and debtor: it did not, in defiance of the first principles of all law and justice, do that which nothing but the last necessity could justify, and which parliament was only compelled to do oc Mr. Serjeant Onslow rose to call the attention of the House to the Bill now before the House, and which had already reached nearly its last stage without producing one single animadversion. He deemed it his duty to state, that he thought it the most material invasion of the civil law of this country that had been brought forward in parliament for a long period. It was not an occasional act, but a permanent and general law, not only altering all the provisions which had before prevailed with respect to creditor and debtor, but investing a single judge with powers never before exercised in any court of English judicature. Among the penalties enacted was to be found the penalty of death; and the creation alone of another capital felony was a sufficient ground, in his judgment, for calling the attention of the House to the measure before them. trusted, therefore, that his hon. and learned friend would have no objection to delay his motion for a few days, that an opportunity might be given to members casionally, because the prisons of the country could not receive the accumulating number of persons confined for debt. This was not an ex post facto law of any such description. The Bill was founded upon a principle familiar to the legislation of other countries, that of the cessio bonorum, by which a debtor on surrendering the whole of his property was permitted to retain and enjoy his personal liberty. A wise principle in his opinion it was; one that entitled a person who had been unfortunate, perhaps impru dent or criminal, to retrace his steps, to new model his conduct and become an useful member of society, instead of shutting him up from the exercise of industry, and exposing him to the moral contagion of a prison. He did not approve of all the provisions, but he congratulated the House upon the general principle of the measure, sanctioned as it had been by those eminent and distinguished law authorities by whom it had been prepared. The Bill was undoubtedly a very cousiderable innovation, and perfection was not to be expected in the first instance. The clause inflicting the capital punishment of death ought not to have been introduced precipitately in a Committee of that House, thus evading some of the forms to which the main body of the Bill was subjected. If it were consistent with the practice of the House he should move, on the re-commitment of the Bill, for the omission of that clause. Here was a practical proof of the facility with which a law for depriving a subject of his life might pass unobserved, whilst any effort at repealing a capital punishment was sure to meet with strenuous opposition. By the law as it stood at present the offence made capital by this clause might be prosecuted as perjury, and the offender suffer transportation. As to what had been said by the hon. and learned gentleman of this provision being copied from certain clauses in the Bankrupt Laws, he wished to observe that this was precisely the law which from its excessive severity was never carried into execution. Since the first enactment of the capital part of the Bankrupt Law in the reign of George 2, not more than five individuals bad suffered the penalty which he was quite satisfied more than five thousand had incurred. However gross the frauds of the bankrupt, few creditors would choose to extend the punishment of them to death. The Bill before the House had been called an innovation. It was undoubtedly so, but it proceeded from those who were pretty generally the decided enemies of innovation, and came therefore with a double claim upon the attention and deference of that House. The Speaker said, that the effect of recommitting the Bill, was to undo all that had been done in the Committee, and to leave the measure open to any alteration or addition which might be proposed. Mr. Lockhart supported the Bill. Mr. Serjeant Onslow explained that he had only described the Bill to be a most material alteration of the law. without saying that it was either for the better or the worse. The Bill was then ordered to be recommitted on this day se'nnight. Mr. ADMIRALTY REGISTRAR'S BILL.] H. Martin moved the order of the day for taking into further consideration the Report of the Bill for regulating the office of Registrar of the Admiralty. Lord Castlereagh, though he had hitherto supported this measure as one of general regulation, and though he admitted that looking forward to the persons who might hereafter fill the office of Registrar of the Admiralty, the balance in hand would be better deposited in the Bank than in the care of any individual; yet in the present instance, considering the property and personal character of lord Arden, he thought it could not be denied, that every security was afforded which the suitors themselves could desire, and therefore in his opinion it would be a monstrous exercise of the power of parliament to push the present enactment against that individual. He then moved a clause, providing that the regulations contained in the Bill should not take effect till after the expiration of the interest at present vested in the office. Lord Milton said, if this clause were to be accepted, he thought it would be better not to proceed farther with the Bill. He thought the public very much indebted to his hon. and learned friend, for having introduced the Bill, which was unquestionably much wanted. He would put an extreme case, which, however, might happen. Suppose the Registrar should become a bankrupt, the suitors would certainly lose all the money in bis hands. He must, therefore, object to the clause, as it would render the Bill wholly nugatory. |