was not allowed to lie on the table, it was a complete rejection of it.

Viscount Sidmouth said, he had expressed his doubts as to the rules of this House; and though he had since been informed, from authority on which he could rely, that his motion would be regular; yet, as he observed the opinion of the House was, in this case, against him, he would not persist in it.

Here the conversation dropped.

our ecclesiastical constitution, and is ge.. nerally involved in political connections unfriendly to British prosperity; they know all full well how prone human nature is to corruption and superstition, and how powerfully the Roman Catholic creed, and the confidential intercourse with the priesthood, by auricular confession, tend to subjugate the worthiest characters, and to discipline and mould them into instruments for promoting the purposes of their sect; if, therefore, the House, and the other branches of the legislature, deem in their wisdom that the exigency of the times is such as to authorize any change in the system of securi ties adopted at the Revolution, that gloTHE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.] Lord rious era from which these nations date Castlereagh presented a Petition from the the blessings of freedom, order, religious ministers and elders of the church of Scot-toleration, and political prosperity, the land, met in general assembly; setting forth,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Tuesday, June 1.

PETITION RESPECTING THE ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM THE MINISTERS AND ELDERS

OF

petitioners trust and pray, that the utmost caution and prudence, will be exercised, that none of the bulwarks of the constitution, ecclesiastical or civil, be, on any account, exposed to hazard, and that effectual precautions be adopted to exclude foreign influence from the councils of the

ment, and to maintain this happy land impregnable, as heretofore, to foreign innovation, foreign intrigue, and foreign corruption; and that while the petitioners cordially express their reliance on the wisdom of parliament, and their full conviction that the rights and privileges of the church of Scotland will continue to enjoy the protection of parliament, they presume to annex to their petition a solemn declaration, in which they pledge themselves, before God, to the House, and to their country, that they will discharge, with fidelity and vigilance, the duties incumbent upon them as office bearers in that Protestant church which was esta blished in Scotland at the blessed Refor. mation from Popery, and will continue to cherish, in the minds of the people com. mitted to their care, those principles of religious liberty which are incorporated with the British constitution, and which are the glory of this Protestant land."

"That, observing that there was lately under the revision of the legislature, and may again come under their revision, that part of the public law of the state, which subjects Roman Catholics to certain disabilities, the petitioners are deeply im-state and the administration of the governpressed with the conviction that they should be wanting in duty to that great and loyal body of his Majesty's subjects which compose the national church of Scotland, of which they are the representatives, did they fail to express to the House the deep interest and concern they must ever take in all discussions and measures which have for their object to innovate upon the laws which our forefathers in their time, deemed necessary for securing to the people of these realms the bless ings of civil liberty and of the Protestant religion and that the petitioners have, at all times, felt the utmost anxiety that religious toleration should be preserved inviolate; and, at a period so full of peril to the security and independence of the empire, are aware of the peculiar importance of removing every ground of disaffection, of diffusing universally sentiments of genuine patriotism, by opening to all classes of his Majesty's subjects the paths of honourable ambition, and affording them all the consequence which property, talent, or successful industry bestow; but that the petitioners cannot be insensible to this peculiarity in the situation of Roman Catholics, that they maintain a certain intercourse with a foreign hierarchy, and observe a certain submission to a fo reign pontiff, which may prove hostile to

Mr. Canning said, he would avail him self of that opportunity to state the great satisfaction he felt at the stand that had been made within these few days, by the lay Catholics of England, against the efforts of an insulting and domineering priesthood. He was inclined to augur much good from their resolutions: they shewed themselves determined to eman

1

sances, and injurious to the property and rights of the subject. He wished the House to follow their example, and was strongly against the present Resolution.

Mr. Sullivan said, that the Company in 1792, shewed every wish to grant licenses to such British merchants as were desirous of embarking in the fur trade with China.

Mr. Stephen expressed his surprise that his hon. friend should have taken that opportunity of making a violent attack on the Resolution, when it seemed to be the general sense of the committee, that it would be better to postpone the debate on the principle, till the bringing up of the Report.

tions and irregularities. And if the government of this country could not with all its care exclude such defalcations and abuses as were fresh in the recollections of those who heard him, and wounding to the feelings of the nation, it ought not in fairness to be imputed to the Company as a subject of reprobation that excesses or malversations had sometimes occurred in the East. The system of the Company was no more to be given up on this account than was the British constitution because functionaries employed under it were sometimes guilty of abusing the trust reposed in them. The general administration of the Company and their servants for a series of years past was such as to improve the happiness of the people under their care, and to establish their own reputation for good government. It had, indeed, been echoed by the hon. gentleman, from the speech of a noble lord, that it was to the legislature, and the Board of Controul, that the good government of India was to be ascribed: and Mr. Grant said he did not mean to deny that the regulations of parliament, and the administration of the Board of Commissioners, had contributed to that end; but he must contend that the radical principles of the most material reforms which had taken place in the administration of India, were first developed in the writings of the Company's servants there, and adopted by the Court of Directors at home; that it was their province to originate instructions for the administration of affairs in India, and those instructions were submitted to the Board of Controul, who generally acquiesced in them without material alteration. It was not, however, on their character alone, that the Company stood, that came in as a subordinate question. Nor did they argue for the continuance of their privileges merely on commercial principles; although more was to be said for the origin and continuance of them in that view than the hon. gentleman seemed to allow. In their commencement, queen Elizabeth had been the willing patron of them for national purposes, and did not confound the privileges of great commercial bodies with such abuses as the monopoly of particular articles of internal consumption given by patent to private favourites. The Company contended for the maintenance of the ex

Mr. Charles Grant, sen. said, it was altogether unfair to argue on the character of the present Company from that of a company no longer existing. The complaints which, according to the hon. gent., had in the time of king William, been preferred to the House against the conduct of the company of that day, came chiefly from adventurers and interlopers in India who wished to take the trade to themselves, who succeeded by clamours and exactions in getting themselves and their coadjutors established into a separate Company, which by its hostile competition nearly ruined both itself and the old Company. Among all the calumnies vented against the present Company he had never heard the strange accusation now so confidently brought forward by the hon. gent., that they had occasioned the destruction of so many of the natives of India! He wished to know where the hon. member had made this discovery, and that he would shew on what authority the accusation rested. It could only have been lately that he had entertained such views, for he had been a member of the Company, and had even taken a leading part in their general courts; but it could not be supposed he would have belonged to the body had he viewed the character of it then, as he represents it now. It was very probable that in the course of British administration in India, particularly in the earlier stages of it, exceptionable things might have been done by individuals. He did not mean to stand up as the universal advocate for all persons and measures which had appeared on the Indian scene; but was a system to be condemned because the conduct of every individual concerned in the execu-isting Indian system, because they thought tion of it was not perfect? Then must it was recommended by the true policy the British constitution be given up. It and real interest of this country. was impossible wholly to prevent devia

The hon. gentleman had said tea was

Sir Robert Peel animadverted on the ex

rendered so much dearer to the consumer here by the exclusive trade of the Compressions which had been used on a former pany, that it would be better to pay them a million and a half yearly than to continue the monopoly. But this was altogether an exaggeration. The Company neither gained so much by the tea, nor would a free trade, if it could be established, produce the benefits that were supposed. The comparison of the price of teas here, with that quoted from the American market, involved a great deception; for things sold and compared under the same name were in fact very different. What was dignified in America with the title of Souchong, a tea of superior quality, was, in fact, often nothing but what was known here by the inferior name of Bohea. The teas were put up by the Company at little more than prime cost, and all the advance beyond was by competition among the buyers.

The hon. gentleman had very much misstated the ground on which the Company came forward sometimes (not as he said annually) to parliament, for pecuniary aid. They were necessitated to do so formerly because the government had taxed them beyond their ability, on the score of participating in the territorial revenues. All loans of this kind made to the Company had been repaid. Of late the Company had been obliged to apply to parliament twice for the payment of just demands, owing them by the nation on account of advances for the public service abroad; and they had applied on some other occasions to be enabled to defray territorial debt transferred here, which debt had been incurred under the sanction of parliament, and it was well known, never could, in the nature of things, have been discharged out of the home funds of the Company.

Mr. Marryat declared, he had never any concern with the East India Company but as holder of stock, and never attended the assembly but once, when he voted with the directors, in a case in which they appeared to him to be in the right. It was true, that the price of tea was raised by the buyers; but then they had no other shop to go to.

Mr. Grant said, that this did not force them to give 3s. 6d. for teas, when put up

at 2s.

Mr. Marryat rejoined, that the Company put up their teas at a price at which they were sure of a benefit, and had besides the exclusive advantage of competition from the buyers.

evening respecting the character of British traders. When the discussions took place on the renewal of the charter in 1793, he had a seat in that House, and was appointed by the northern manufacturers to treat with the ministry in their behalf, and he had in consequence been authorized by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Dundas to in form the manufacturers that great concessions would be made to them, although those gentlemen conceived themselves obliged afterwards to recal their promise. He deprecated the continuance of a state of things by which a trade was forced into the hands of the Americans, to which British capital was adequate. At present he could maintain, that the country was in every respect equal to carry on the trade to India with its own capital; and he would put it to the House, whether the people of Great Britain alone were to be excluded from the benefit of a trade, to the existence of which they so very largely contributed?

Mr. C. Grant, jun. said, that he had, on the former night of the debate, explained that he did not mean to apply his remarks to British traders in general, and that explanation it was not necessary for him then to repeat.

Mr. R. Thornton reverted to the time of queen Elizabeth for the origin and progress of the tea trade. All the best teas were purchased by the Company, and the Americans, whose participation in the China trade had been so much complained of, only were able to obtain teas of an inferior quality. And such was the confidence which the Chinese, notwithstanding the well-known jealousy of their disposition, placed in the Company, that if perchance bad teas were brought to this country, it was only necessary to send out an intimation to that effect, and to state, that those teas had been sunk in the Thames, to procure a full allowance for the money paid for them. If a promiscuous intercourse was once established, and if sailors and persons of all characters and descriptions were allowed to embark in the trade, and to visit India, the consequence would be, that the confidence of which he had spoken would be completely destroyed; and those advantages which had hitherto been derived from the trade, as it was at present constituted, would be completely lost. Upon the whole, he was firmly of opinion, that the trade could not

which was afforded to every member to speak as often as the subject might require. Upon the subject of this branch of the question, he meant the China trade, it appeared to him, that no argument whatever had been adduced, from which the

be carried on with more advantage to the consumer, to the revenue, or to the coun try, than it was at this moment. When it was said, that our connection with India had made millions unhappy, he would repel the imputation by holding up to view the present ameliorated state of In-House could fairly infer, that it would be dia, and by reminding the House of the profound knowledge of ethics and politics, displayed during the evidence given at the bar, by those who had acted in India under the administration of the Company. Mr. Protheroe said, that the persons from the outports had not demanded the concession of the China trade; and, therefore, he was not disposed to give any op position to the second Resolution, although he thought the time therein specified for the continuation of the trade, not such as was calculated to give general satisfaction. Lord Castlereagh was of opinion, that the question, as to the limitation of the monopoly, would be discussed more effectually, and in a more satisfactory manner, at some future stage of the Bill, on the bringing up of the Report or otherwise. For the present, therefore, he thought it would be expedient to postpone the consideration of this topic, so that no impediments might be thrown in the way of the House, in proceeding to the discussion of the third Resolution, which involved so many points, of which different and contending opinions might be entertained.

either prudent or expedient to sanction a further monopoly of that trade, upon the part of the East India Company. The House was told, that unless such a measure was adopted, the China trade would be completely ruined: that was as much as to say, that if competition was allowed we should have our teas dearer and of a worse quality than heretofore. This was a sort of phenomenon which he must imagine applied only to the China trade. He did not believe it would be credited by that House, nor did he think that British merchants were disposed to swallow it very easily. But it was plain to observe, that the India Company were desirous to make the people of Great Britain pay for the expense of their sovereignty in the East, and this only was to be effected through the medium of the China trade. If such a principle was now admitted and sanctioned by the House for a further term of twenty years, the consequence would be, that at the expiration of that time a new argument would be afforded for the further continuance of the same privilege, and hence would the India ComMr. Ponsonby was not disposed to agree pany become the undisputed and acknowwith the suggestion of the noble lord, con- ledged sovereigns of the East. He beceiving, as he did, the present as the best fore stated that the vices of the East India opportunity of discussing the principle of Company had been corrected, not by the Resolution before the House. He themselves, but by the interference of could not comprehend upon what grounds parliament; and this assertion he now the monopoly of the China trade was to begged leave to repeat. Viewing the be continued to the East India Company, state of India in general, and the kind of and thought the time of the Committee mixed government by which it was concould not be better employed, than in in- trolled, he did not think that the interests quiring into this subject. The point for de- of that country would be more effectually cision was not, whether the monopoly in protected by being placed under the di question should be allowed to exist for rection of parliament than by remaining five, ten, or fifteen years, but whether it in the hands of the Company. He was should be allowed to exist at all; and for the decided enemy of monopoly in every this reason he would object to the arrange- form, and he saw no more reason for ment proposed by the noble lord, depre- carrying on the China and India trade cating, as he did, the existence of the under such a system, than he did for adoptmonopoly of the China trade for a single ing a similar plan, with respect to the hour. Baltic, the Turkey, or any other trade. Sir J. Newport was decidedly in favour In fact, nineteen-twentieths of the argu of the discussion of the Resolutions in de-ments which had been adduced, only went tail, and in a committee, as, from such a mode of proceeding, the most material benefits were likely to arise to the House and the country, from the opportunity

to convince him of the impolicy and evil tendency of longer binding up the Indian trade in fetters. Upon those general principles, he would oppose the whole Resolu