matter of debate; but the evidence of the Company had been sifted to the bottom, and was given by persons of the highest character and greatest respectability; but all this was to be set at nought, and an assertion in debate was to be considered as superior to all. If the subject was to be discussed and not merely to be voted, every enquiry ought to be made. The opponents of the Company had not the courage to call a witness; no witness had the courage to offer himself. He contended, that the mass of evidence produced on the side of the Company was not to be repelled, but by evidence produced on the opposite side. The Company's servants had displayed talent, wisdom, and good conduct, such as was never excelled. He felt great difficulty in this question, but he must do his duty: no party allegiance should prevent him from advocating and supporting those opinions, the success of which he thought necessary to the security of the British empire at large. If the question should be carried contrary to the opinions which he supported, he thought that more mischief would be caused by listening to the clamorous cry of interested men than had been caused by any debate in that House for a century. He required the patient attention of the House, and he was confi. dent that every gentleman who had attended to the evidence would agree, that the mass of information was very difficult to be digested, and that it was very hard to state the prominent points. Some thought that the system of 1784 and 1793, was the system to advance the British interests in India; others thought that that system ought to be entirely given up, and recurrence be had to broad and general principles; that all sovereignty ought to reside in the crown; and that all trade should be free, open, and unrestrained. Some thought that the Company might exist politically, but should not be allowed to interfere in commercial matters. It was difficult to conceive that twenty-four execrable merchants would make excellent political governors; but the system, if system it might be called, proposed by his Majesty's ministers, was the most extraordinary. It departed from general principles: it had neither the support of practice or theory. He did not know any grounds of charge that existed against the Company. Prima facie the Company had done nothing that required any alte ration; he knew of no crimes they had ,committed. Gentlemen had said, that the system of 1793 was but an experiment he had never so considered it, and lord Grenville had then expressed his determination to maintain a regulated monopoly, and thought great danger would result from a contrary conduct. But if it was an experiment, it was entitled to be examined as to its success. If the happiness of 60 millions was the object, was not that obtained? If extension of dominion was the object, which he thought it was not, had not the British dominions been extended beyond the ideas of the most sanguine? It had been stated, that the Company did not carry on trade advantageously; that had not been proved, but it was no matter whether they carried it on to profit or not, if they beneficially carried on the government for the preservation of the lives, property, and happiness of 60 millions of persons. They had no right, therefore, to say the experiment had failed. The principal author of that measure had failed in the expectation he had held out of a supply of half a million yearly to the country; but was not 20 years of war, without interruption, a sufficient excuse? If the expedient had not succeeded as to trade in general, still the private trade had greatly increased. Could the Company, then, be accused of being possessed by a narrow spirit of monopoly? If the export trade had not increased in proportion, neither the Company nor the private merchant was to blame: it arose from the inability of the natives to purchase British manufactures. Large revenues had been acquired by the Company, not much less than 7 millions: they had an army of 150,000 men, officered by men of the highest estimation: they had servants such as no other body had ever possessed. The government of India was well and admirably administered, and all this was to be pushed down, not to constitute the happiness of the people of India, but to acquire a little more trade: it was no scheme to increase their happiness, but to make them, or rather to make us, more rich. It was stated, that a free trade was better than a monopoly; but not a word was said as to the persons who were to carry on the trade, as to the capital, or as to the articles. It was argued, that all British subjects had a right to a free and open trade to all places under the British dominion; but he denied it on broad principles; it was for that House to regulate the trade of the country, otherwise they had no right to legislate on the question at all, no right to regulate the friends of that country, they should profess themselves the enemies of it, what more could they do than advise the en coasting trade, no right to enact the Navigation Act. The attempt to satisfy the gentlemen of the out-ports would, if persisted in, he feared, prove fatal to the Bri-deavour to crush all Indian manufacture? tish empire in India. He should not pre- They might argue very well as merchants, tend to say, that, abstractedly speaking, but very badly as philosophers; and, inLiverpool and Bristol had not as strong deed, he could see no over-abundance of claims as London; but he should bottom the milk of human kindness in this new himself on the old system which now Birmingham philosophy. In England, existed, and by which the trade of India where the woollen manufacture was our was confined to the port of London. It staple, we prohibited the exportation of seemed to be the disposition of ministers wool in the raw state; but in India (for now to concede every thing to the gentle- which we professed such friendship) we men of the out-ports. He could not see, were to take care that the cotton wool however, that they had a right to take should only be imported in the state of from London, that which they had so long raw material. Although we pretended enjoyed, and which they had used so well. such anxiety for the good of India, we He believed, that if perfect liberty was wished that it should only be a nursery for given to the out-ports, not a ship would go the raw material, but that all advantages from Bristol to India. The gentlemen of of the manufacture should remain with Liverpool were, however, somewhat more us. They were to supply us with the maenterprising, and probably some ships terial, that we might rival their manufacwould go from Liverpool. The question, tures in every market of the world. however, should not be what was best for What would be said of the East India ComLiverpool or Bristol, but what mode of pany, if they were to show as decided a managing the trade was best for the whole preference to the manufactures of the nacountry and the empire at large. If the tives of India under their protection, as gentlemen of the out-ports really expected we did to the manufactures of England. nothing more than what was contained in The fact, however, was, that as to raw mathese Resolutions, it would not be worth terial, whether cotton or hemp, India the anxiety that they manifested: their could furnish whatever supply we wished real object and hope, however, must be, for. But then if the Company were to that by breaking in upon the system now, undertake to afford a permanent supply they should get by degrees all that they of those articles, who would undertake could wish for. As to the happiness of that they should find a permanent demand? India, (which had been so much spoken Who would undertake that, at the restoraabout) it was evident that the question of tion of peace, cotton should not again be open trade was quite unconnected with the taken from America, and hemp from the other question, of the propagation of Baltic, on such terms as would ruin those Christianity. In other respects, he had who should undertake to furnish the supnot heard that any of the advocates of the ply from India. The noble lord (Castlehappiness of India bad ever proposed to reagh) had, however, seen the necessity allow any one manufacture of India to be of strengthening the police in India in freely imported into this country. The consequence of the new system, and had general principle was, that Great Britain provided for that in the Resolutions: but should force all her manufactures upon what would the people of India think of India, and not take a single manufacture the alteration in the police? They would of India in return. It was true that they ask one another what great danger was would allow cotton twist, but, then, having now to be apprehended? Who was it that found out that they could weave, by was coming to disturb the peace of India? means of machinery, cheaper than the In- They would be answered that it was only dians, they would say to them, "Leave off the gentlemen from the out ports. (A weaving, supply us with the raw material, laugh.) He conceived that some of the and we will weave for you." Now, al-Resolutions would have the effect of bringthough this was a natural principle enough for merchants and manufacturers to go on, it was rather too much to talk of the philosophy of it, or to rank the supporters of it as in a peculiar degree the friends of India. If, instead of calling themselves the ing the Company completely into contempt among the natives of India. For example, if a merchant applied for a licence for a ship to India, and was refused, he might then appeal to the commissioners for managing the affairs of India, who tion. had power to grant it. If an individual | ventured to throw out for their considerachose to go, and was refused leave to go from the Company, he might obtain Lord Castlereagh said, that he felt it his leave from the Board of Controul, and go duty to obviate the misconceptions which there in spite of them. Who could then the right hon. gentleman's speech was prevent him from mentioning in India, likely to produce. The grounds of the that he came there in defiance of the will measure were misrepresented. The right of the Company? and how could a cor- hon. gentleman seemed to think that it porate body, resting upon the breath of was necessary to prove the delinquency public opinion, exist for any time, when of the Company; but surely there was no it was well known in India, that they had occasion for this. If the notion of a limitsuperiors and masters? It was true that, ed charter conveyed any meaning, it con by another clause, the Company had the veyed an acknowledgment of the power of power of sending back from India any parliament to deliberate upon it. It was man that they thought proper, and so this not necessary to make out any case agamat fortunate man, who had procured the au- the directors. The thing resolved itself thority of government to go there against into three questions; whether the former the will of the Company, might, in con- system should be observed, or an entirely sequence of the conflicting authorities, new one adopted, or a middle course purspend his time between going there and sued? He did not think the proper course coming back. He thought that men must lay in either extreme, and it was strange, make up their minds, either to get rid of after the anathema the right hon. gentlethe Company altogether, or to continue man had pronounced upon the middle them on the footing that they had hither. course, that he should fall upon it afterto been. Although he differed from a wards himself. This was a proof of the noble lord (Grenville), on this subject, yet poverty of his argument. The truth was, he thought that his lordship had done he never heard a more unsubstantial speech himself infinite credit by the fair and man- from that right hon. gentleman. He was ly declaration which he had made of his prepared to argue, that the change would opinion on this subject. It appeared to contribute to the general prosperity of him, however, that these alterations had both countries, and that no profit, however been proposed for no other purpose than great to the private merchant, should inmerely to conciliate the clamour of the duce the House to adopt the plan if it was merchants, and he would defy any man to not consistent with the happiness of the point out any thing like the good of India natives of India. He should have made being the object of any of the Resolutions. out a case, which he did not do, to prove It appeared to him, that either the present that this change was so ruinous to the system must be maintained, or that other-power of the Company as to prevent them wise, we must proceed on the broad principle of overturning the East India Company. He thought that the Court of Directors could not accept of this Bill, unless they conscientiously conceived, that under its regulations they could conduct the system for their own benefit, and for the good of the empire. He thought that no friend to liberty and our free constitution could look without the most serious alarm to the destruction of the Company, and the placing directly in the hands of the crown, the increased patronage which another army and an Indian revenue of 17 millions a year would give them. If such additional patronage were thrown into their hands, it was impossible that the last shadow of freedom could remain in this country. The right hon. gentleman concluded a masterly speech with earnestly intreating the House to give the due weight to the several points which he had The from executing the good purposes which they had hitherto fulfilled. Even at present, the natives of India did not enjoy an adequate protection. Even though it were admitted that it would introduce a greater number of Europeans into the interior, this was not sufficient cause for alarm. question now was as to the system that was best for the real happiness of India, and the trade of this country. The argument drawn from the habits of the people, as far as it concerned trade, was pushed to an extreme. Even in the article of cotton alone, exported in a manufactured state from this country, had increased within the last 20 years from 2,000l. to 108,000l. The trade, it was clear therefore, was a growing one. The monopoly was indeed a regulated monopoly, but nevertheless it was regulated upon unwise principles. How, he would ask, could it possibly affect the peace of the interior of India, whether position for extending the trade to the outports, and Mr. Forbes followed on the same side. Mr. R. Thornton, from the lateness of the hour, and the number who appeared still disposed to deliver their opinion upon this subject, suggested the propriety of adjourning the debate until to-morrow. Mr. Ponsonby concurred in this suggestion, adding that he thought it impossible to do justice to the discussion of this important question within the present session, and he should not think it fitting to have it hurried. He would, therefore, rather recommend that a Bill should be passed, continuing the charter of the India Company on its present footing for one year, and that the farther consideration of the subject should be postponed until next session. Lord Castlereagh had no objection to the adjournment, but he was not prepared to accede to the recommendation of the right hon. gentleman. Sir J. Newport pressed the recommendation of Mr. Ponsonby, observing, that if it was resolved to get through the whole question within the present session, the Bills founded upon the Resolutions under consideration, would hardly be brought in, until comparatively few members remained in town to discuss them. the ships and the officers employed in the trade were appointed by the Company or not? No argument was brought to prove the danger of the likelihood of Europeans settling in the interior. It was a country in which the nature of the police was applicable to this case, in which no European could stir without being subject to the inspection of the Company. But even if any danger were found to arise, what was there to prevent parliament from applying a remedy? All he argued against was, tying up the hands of parliament. If the danger were found to arise, the out-ports would have no charter to prevent parliament from interfering. This was an attempt on the part of those who were against the plan to tie up the hands of parliament merely upon the ground of a chimerical danger. With respect to smuggling, there was no case made out which would not as well have applied to lord Auckland's treaty with France. This danger was a mere pretence. There was no country with which they traded that was not attended with the same danger, and it arose more from neutral ships than from their own. Even if the danger were admitted, he would answer such as argued in this way with the paramount argument that no charter was given to the out-ports. The moment the danger arose there would be no difficulty in withdrawing the indul- Mr. Canning said he saw no reason to gence. He hoped therefore such imagi- induce him to believe that it was imposnary dangers would not impose fetters sible to settle the question this session; at upon the commerce of the country, and all events, if it was understood, that the that parliament, upon such grounds, would question would not be decided, it would not be called upon to surrender their dis- be impossible to secure an attendance to cretion to the East India Company. He the preliminary discussions. had no doubt the Company used their power with honour, but he would not give up to them the exercise of that discretion which should reside in parliament. Their concerns were now much too complicated for the understandings of any body of men, and he must say that the Company were labouring under a weight which oppressed them. During the continuance of their late charter they carried on their affairs with inadequate funds, and exposed themselves to commercial losses, which no body of men should be exposed to. They never had funds to enable them to carry on the trade; and until they were re leased from it they could not know where they stood, either in commerce or politics. Upon these grounds he should feel it necessary to persevere in the arrangements he had proposed. Mr. Finlay spoke in favour of the pro The Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again to-morrow. MANCHESTER PETITION] Lord Cochrane presented a Petition from certain persons in Manchester, complaining of ill usage, false imprisonment, and malicious prosecution, while peaceably assembled to petition parliament for Reform, and praying for redress. On the motion that it do lie on the table, Mr. Bathurst opposed it, on the ground that the petitioners could seek redress in a court of law, but that the House could not afford them relief. Mr. Whitbread supported the motion, contending, that to men in the circumstances of the petitioners (some of them being now prisoners for debt), it was a mere mockery and taunt to tell them that the courts of law were open to them, where they might bring actions for malicious prosecutions. It reminded him of a saying of the late Mr. Horne Tooke, who on being told that the courts were open to all classes, replied, "Yes, and so is the London Tavern, if you have money enough." As the petition was couched in respectful terms, he thought it would be setting a bad precedent to reject it: it was useful, even though parliament could not interfere, to see that magistrates did not exceed the bounds of their jurisdiction. Mr. Wynn observed, that the House had been, at all times, peculiarly jealous, that no obstructions should be given to the exercise of the right of petitioning; and as the present complaint related to an alleged obstruction of that nature, it ought to be received. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, June 3. PETITION FROM GREENOCK RESPECTING THE CORN TRADE. A Petition of the magistrates and town council of Greenock, as representing the community and corporation thereof, was presented and read; setting forth, maintaining a fair competition in foreign markets, where the expence of subsistence and price of labour are comparatively low; and that whatever is injurious to the merchant and manufacturer, and the great body of people in this country, who are dependent on their success, must ultimately injure the agricultural and every other interest in the empire; and praying, that no change may be made in the existing corn laws of the United Kingdom; or at all events, that no advance may be made in the prices at which the different sorts of grain may now be imported." Ordered to lie on the table. PETITIONS FOR PROMULGATING THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION IN INDIA.] Twenty-six Petitions-of inhabitants of Galston, Cramond, Wisbech, Market Harborough, Kilkenny, Kennoway, Farnham, Kennington, and Harwich;-of the members and friends of the Missionary Society, residing in Kingston upon Thames, Oakham, Dartmouth, Ottery Saint Mary, Sidbury, Honiton, East Budleigh, and Sidmouth, Stockinham, Axminster, and Tunbridge;-of the supporters and friends of the Baptist mission in India, resident in and near Dolgelley, Nevin, Pontypool, Llandilo, Conway, and the city of Dublin;-of persons re"That the petitioners have perused, siding in or near the town of Tiverton, with an interest becoming the subject, the being either members of the church of Resolutions of a Select Committee of the England, as by law established, or ProHouse on the Corn Trade of the United testant dissenters immediately friendly to Kingdom; and that it appears to the peti- the Missionary Society; of persons residtioners, that the great advance in prices, ing in or near Barnsley, being a congre at which it is proposed the different kinds gational Calvinistic independent church of corn and grain may be imported into members and supporters of the Missionary the United Kingdom, is neither required Society; of Protestants dissenting from nor authorized by the circumstances of the church of England residing at Gravesthe country; and that the increased and end; and of the magistrates, town council, increasing prices of all sorts of grain, for ministers of the established church and of a series of years past, has afforded, and dissenting congregations, and other inhabiwill continue to afford, a sufficient encou- tants of the city and parish of Brechin;ragement to agriculture; and the advance were presented and read; praying that in the prices at which it is proposed grain such provisions may be inserted in the may be imported, would, if sanctioned by new charter to be granted to the East Inlaw, have the effect of suddenly, and to dia Company as shall afford sufficient fatoo great an extent, advancing the price cilities to those benevolent persons, who not only of grain, but also of all kinds of shall be desirous of going to India, for the provisions, and prevent their ever again purpose of communicating to its popnlafalling under such advanced prices in this tion the blessings of useful knowledge and country; and that the thus raising of the moral and religious improvement; and price of grain to and keeping it at a much also such provisions as shall prevent the greater height in this country than in any obstruction of their endeavours for proother, would, if authorized, have the ef-moting their object in that country, so fect of increasing the price of labour, and long as they shall conduct themselves in adding to the difficulties the British mer- a peaceable and orderly manner. chants and manufacturers already feel in Ordered to lie upon the table. |