not " now insisted that it ought to be supported. He passed a high encomium upon the character and conduct of marquis Cornwallis, and censured, in terms equally severe, the acts of marquis Wellesley in India, insisting that he had destroyed much happiness, and contending that we must lay the flattering unction to our souls," that the people of India were happier or more prosperous under the government of Great Britain than under the authority of their own native princes. With respect to the evidence produced on the part of the East India Company, the witnesses, however respectable, were bred and had risen to wealth and fame under the monopoly of the Company. These witnesses, too, were so much at variance with themselves, that before he ventured to pronounce on the question he should like to have other evidence to confront with them. The gentlemen of the out-ports had not dealt fairly with the House. Expeditition was every thing with them. For his part, he was no East India proprietor, nor in any wise connected with the out-ports, but as a member of parlia Mr. Whitbread insisted that the most important part of this mighty subject had been overlooked or neglected, and while the commercial quarrel was fomented between the Company and the out-ports, the interests of fifty millions of people in the East were considered unworthy the attention of the legislature: he took shame to himself for his comparative ignorance upon India subjects, but more shame belonged to the House that it always treated them with unmerited indifference. He complained that the out-ports had not produced the satisfactory evidence they so loudly boasted, and that the question had been already so much delayed, that a due consideration during the present session was impossible. He then entered into the history of the various discussions upon this subject, to shew that government had been culpably dilatory in bringing it forward, and remarked in severe terms upon the inconsistency of lord Castlereagh, who, before so vehement an advocate in favour of extending the influence of the crown, was now so squeamish as to stickle for points of little importance connected with it. The truth was, that the minis-ment he wanted information. A noble terial tools into which the Company would be converted would soon crumble away, and the controul of India, its patronage, and its wealth, would quietly fall into the hands of ministers. The only mode of deciding was to allow of no disgraceful compromise. The question ought to beCompany, or no Company!-Monopoly, or no Monopoly !-If it ought to be destroyed, destroy it!-if it ought to be maintained, maintain it! For his part, if a wish would destroy our territorial possessions in India, he would wish them annihilated, or at least wrested from Great Britain. The hon. member disputed the justice of the eulogium passed upon the Company by Mr. Grant, jun. on a former night, and detailed to the House the va rious acts and proceedings from 1773 to 1793, to shew that it had always been deemed incompetent to the conduct of the government of India, and after all these steps to shew that the Company was worth nothing, they were now to be allowed a precarious existence to continue that government, when 30 years ago they had been cashiered of all power and declared inefficient. He quoted lord Castlereagh's opinions when president of the Board of Controul, shewing that he had nine years since declared that the Company ought not and could not exist longer, and yet lord in another House (lord Grenville*) had given to the world a speech upon this question, with the sentiments of which he completely agreed. We were every day hearing of the degeneracy of the times in which we lived; but it would be degenerate indeed, even for these our days, if we were not able at once to take to the crown what was the right of the crown-to take it boldly, and not circuitously-and open the trade to the whole of the empire. They had been told of the dangerous consequences which might ensue in Indiathe difficulty of preventing smugglingand the danger of allowing any but the servants of the East India Company to go to Canton, while the American subjects were, it was well known, already there. He was amazed that the member for Liverpool should have given up the China trade so easily. This was the most important branch of the whole, and the one where there was the least danger to be apprehended from smuggling. But the noble lord (Castlereagh) had said that the Company must be kept alive, and it was to be kept alive, that he might be the governor of them. The China trade was the breath with which the Company was to be kept alive. The noble lord had after * See vol. 25, p. 709. wards said, or seemed to say-for sometimes the noble lord seemed to say something, when he said nothing-that the experiment by which they should know whether the Company was alive, was their ability of paying their dividend. So that if the China trade was not sufficient to keep the Company alive, then came the death-blow of the Company; and at last the noble lord would come down to the House and tell them, that as the dividend could no longer be paid, the Company was at an end. Then, when every thing would be involved in convulsion and confusion, the whole would necessarily fall, unguarded and unprotected, into the power of the crown. The hon. gentleman concluded with observing, that among various topics of great importance, which still called for 'discussion, the 13th Resolution, which related to the diffusion of light and knowledge in India, was not the least. It was one which did not admit of halting between two opinions; and which, after mature consideration, ought to be followed up by every wise and adequate measures which the legislature and the government were capable of adopting and carrying into effect. | tion to persist in pressing the adoption of a Bill this session, founded as it would be, upon the Resolutions; for he was convinced, that not only very serious inconveniences, but considerable danger would result, both at home and in India, from any farther delay. Mr. Robert Thornton could not agree with the right hon. baronet's amendment for delaying the question three months longer. Exclusively of the inconvenience and danger which would attend the measure, it would also be productive of great hazard and uncertainty. He certainly did not approve of the Resolutions in their present state, nor could he agree to the proposed delay, but he thought, that under every circumstance, the House was bound to come, even at this late period of the session, to a decision. He felt, however, an earnest hope, whatever might be the final arrangement of parliament respecting the affairs of India, that his constituents would give to that arrangement all possible attention, and be ready to adhere to its meaning and spirit. Lord Archibald Hamilton said the House would not discharge their duty to their constituents nor to the people of India, Mr. Stephen said, that the question be- if they did not take the proper time for fore the House was whether the Resolutions becoming acquainted with this question. of the Committee should be now taken A number of witnesses had been brought into consideration, or postponed to a dis- forward, who were acknowledged to be tant period. The hon. gentleman who frequently at variance with each other. had last spoken, had grounded his convic. There were documents on the table, shewtion of the necessity of delay upon his ing not only the grossest mismanagement own assumptions and assertions; for al- of India, but the utter want of protection though he had argued that the happiness of the people of that country. The admiof 60 millions of people in Asia depended nistration of justice in India was in many upon the decision of the House, yet he had points entitled to praise; but it was in not thought proper to offer any proofs of evidence from the very judges in India the abuses and wrongs under which they themselves, that the system was erroneous, were supposed to labour. The hon. gen. and not adapted to give prisoners a fair tleman had indeed adverted to many cases trial. They were called on by the advoof calamity and misery in India, but he cates of the Company, to name abuses in had at the same time, passed over all the the government of the Company of late improvements that had taken place, and years. Was not Madras almost lost by all the regulations respecting the pro-what, in his opinion, was misconduct on prietorship of land, and the administration the part of sir George Barlow? of justice, which had been introduced since Mr. Tierney said, that if he consulted his the period of 1793.-While he approved own feelings on the subject, he should of certain modifications which might be vote against the amendment of his right suggested in the government, he was ready hon. friend, as he wished that this importto maintain that the present system, as a ant subject should be disposed of as soon whole, ought to be preserved. It was in as it possibly could; but, on the other fact requisite that the exercise of the go- hand, the more he attended the debates vernment should continue to be vested in the more he was convinced that prothe Company, and that a controlling power longed discussion would be of the utmost should exist in the crown. He was glad advantage to the Indian empire. Great to hear, that it was the noble lord's inten-inconveniencies would (he was aware) arise from adjourning the subject at that time, but greater still from adjourning it, as the noble lord would do, after the Resolutions had been agreed to.-[No! from lord Castlereagh]-The noble lord said, that when the Bill was brought in it would be the best time for proposing an adjournment but in his (Mr. T.'3) opinion, it was the very worst; for if the question was to be postponed, it would be better that it should be done before the House was shackled by any declaration of its opinions. There would be no regard to decency in finishing the question altogether this session. From the numerous notices on the three first Resolutions, it was impossible that they could be disposed of before next Wednesday or Thursday; then they were to be taken into consideration by the Lords, and could not be returned from their lordships before the middle of the week after next. Then came the Bill under very different circumstances from any one on this subject, that had at any previous time come under the consideration of the House. In other cases there had always been some compromise between the government and the Company; but now they were as far apart as they could be, and every debate shewed the Company in a still stronger light, the jeopardy they were in. The Bill being in the nature and even the terms of an agreement, must be submitted to the other party-the court of proprietors; and as they would probably object to it, a ballot would take place, so that it could not come for discussion before the latter end of July. Would gentlemen, he would ask, wish to stay in town through the month of August? If so, all was well. But he was much afraid, that they would be left (as they were during the last session, when voting one hundred and thirteen millions) with a House of five-and-twenty gentlemen. If the Resolutions were agreed to, and the Bill postponed, what inconveniences would arise from this determination going out to India-a sentence of death to the Company, with a reprieve for twelve months. He should be very willing himself to sit to the middle of August, if there appeared a possibility of finishing the business this session; but as there was not, he should, with unfeigned regret, vote for the proposed adjournment. If the country were persuaded that the intention was to take the whole patronage of India into the hands of the crown, he was convinced that so strong would be the feeling of the public against it, that their table would be loaded with petitions in favour of the Company. And he was persuaded that the Company must be left untouched, except regulations as to trade, or the government of India turned over to the crown. Lord Castlereagh said, that so far from having any doubts as to the possibility of passing the Bill that session, the reverse was the case. His course of proceeding would be, to found a Bill immediately on the Resolutions; and he thought there would be no difficulty in prosecuting the subject to a termination during this session. The House had prolonged its session at various times on subjects of less importance: but he did not conceive any such delay would be at this time necessary. Mr. Canning had heard no argument for delaying the measure which might not, in his opinion, be urged with equal propriety at any other time. With respect to the objections which had been advanced, that the out-ports had not brought forward any evidence in support of their claims to a participation in the trade; he deemed not only the absence of that testimony a proof of the justice of their claims, but considered it an additional reason why their pretensions should be attended to, since they were content to leave them to the candid and impartial judgment of the House. He thought, after all the enquiry which had taken place, that delay, in the present advanced state of discussion, would be worse than almost any decision, as it could not fail to give strength to conflicting opinions, and to increase that restlessness of contention which might lead to very dangerous consequences. If the consideration of the question were adjourned to the next session, it would be necessary to go over all that had been done, and to retrace all the steps which had been taken. He had to express his concern, that the affairs of India had not at all times commanded that attention to which they were entitled, but he earnestly hoped that a more watchful eye would be kept upon them, particularly after the present Bill, which he trusted would be passed. He thought, however, that the extension of time ought not to exceed the hope of any gentleman then in the House, of witnessing its revival on a future day. He was happy to hear the sentiments of the hon. gentleman near him, with respect to the manner in which the measure would be received by the Company. Mr. Robert Thornton begged to be understood as not having hazarded any opinion on the subject of the Company's acceptance of the arrangement. He had merely stated, that if it were imposed upon the Company as a duty, they would feel themselves bound to adhere to its spirit. not yet had time to make up their minds After the division, 21 192 -171 Mr. Ponsonby stated his determination, if the further consideration of the Report of the Committee on the Company's affairs, should take place immediately, to take the sense of the House on an amendment of the Resolution, granting the monopoly of the Chinese trade, having for its object to limit the duration of such mono Lord Castlereagh then consented to postpone the further consideration of the Report till Monday, and the question being put to that effect, was carried in the affirmative. HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, June 14. Mr. Ponsonby agreed in the observations which had fallen from his right hon. friend who moved the adjournment, and did not think that the House could come conscientiously to a decision during the present session upon so extensive and important a topic as the government of sixty millions of people. He denied that the benefit of the discussions which had already taken place would be lost by a post-poly to ten years. ponement of the subject to the next session. He was sure that the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, did not mean seriously when he urged such an argument. Indeed, he thought the opinions of that right hon. gentleman, were more in accordance with the impatience of those whom he represented in that House, than they were consistent with his own clear and conscientious view of the question. TREATY WITH SWEDEN.] Earl Grey was Independent of the present topic, there desirous, before they proceeded with any were a variety of other most important farther business, to put some questions to subjects, which would occupy the atten- the noble earl opposite (lord Liverpool), tion of the House, and which would pro- with respect to the Treaty with Sweden, tract the sittings to such an extent, that lately laid on their lordships' table; bethe question of Indian policy would at cause some additional information was inlength be abandoned to ministers altoge- dispensibly necessary, for the due consither. It might be said that a full attend-peration of that Treaty. In the second ance might be obtained by enforcing and article, it was stated, "that his Britannic keeping up an order for a call of the Majesty promised and engaged to accede House; but this was a proceeding which to the conventions already existing behe apprehended would not be very agree- tween Russia and Sweden, insomuch that able to the generality of the gentlemen his Britannic Majesty would not only opwho had seats in that House. He was pose any obstacle to the annexation and persuaded that the House would do an in-union, in perpetuity, of the kingdom of finitely more acceptable service to the Norway, as an integral part of the kingpeople of India by postponing this ques-dom of Sweden; but also would assist the tion to next session, than by coming to an immediate conclusion. For these reasons he would vote for the proposition of his right hon. friend, not because he thought it was the best mode of taking the sense of the House; for he thought some more eligible method might have been adopted; but because he thought it was immaterial what was the manner in which the feelings of the House was collected. Mr. Bathurst opposed any delay of the measure, and denied that any satisfactory ground had been assigned for deferring the question to a future session. Mr. Whitshed Keene was in favour of delay, upon the ground that the House had views of his majesty the king of Sweden to that effect, either by his good offices, or by employing, if it should be necessary, his naval co-operation, in concert with the Swedish or Russian forces. It was nevertheless, understood, that recourse should not be had to force, for effecting the union of Norway to Sweden, unless his majesty the king of Denmark should have previously refused to join the alliance of the North, upon the conditions stipulated in the engagements subsisting between the courts of Stockholm and St. Petersburgh." By this article, then, Great Britain was bound to co-operate by force, if necessary, in obliging Denmark to give up Norway, was soon dismissed, and hostilities then recommenced. Nay, we knew more than that: not only had hostilities been suspended, but as a proof of the sincerity of the Danish government, in the proposi tions for reconciliation made by them, the Danish troops advanced to Hamburgh, and fought in its defence against the common enemy, which Sweden had not as yet done. But when Great Britain refused to enter into any negociation, the Danish troops were withdrawn; and that power, which had by this direct act manifested its resolution to co-operate against the common enemy, immediately lent its assist that valuable part of its possessions, to Sweden, in the event of the court of Copenhagen refusing to accede to the Northern alliance, upon certain terms and conditions, not as yet known to their lordships. Now, without wishing to raise any discussions at present, or giving expressions to those feelings which the bare perusal of such an engagement, as it appear. ed upon the face of the treaty, naturally excited, he wished to be informed what were the conditions in the alliance between Russia and Sweden, upon the failure of ac ceding to which Denmark was to be deprived of Norway by force, and that country to be for ever united to the king-ance to the accomplishment of the views of dow of Sweden? He wished to know this, because without such information it was utterly impossible to judge of the whole merits of the question, and therefore he trusted the noble earl would agree to lay the treaty between Russia and Sweden on the table, before the discussion. To that he could see no objection. But there were other points upon which it was material also to have the fullest information. They who had with just indignation reprobated the principle of dismemberment and partition, under the pretence of moral or physical convenience, in rendering defence more easy, or security more completethey who had considered such principles, or rather such a want of all principle, as subversive of all right and of all justice, ought to know, and distinctly to know, upon what grounds they proceeded, before they entered into any engagement, or gave their sanction to any treaty, that appeared, in any degree, to recognize the political doctrine against which they had so warmly protested. Their lordships ought, therefore, to know what had lately passed between the court of Copenhagen and our government. We were now unfortunately embarked in a war with Denmark,-upon what grounds, and originating in what causes, he would not then stop to enquire; but if this country still rested in any degree, upon that character for justice and generosity which, he hoped, it would always maintain, it ought to evince every disposition to put an end to that contest, if terms were offered con. sistent with its honour and safety. We did know the fact, that a Danish minister had come to England. We knew that a suspension of hostilities, on the part of Denmark, had taken place until the court of Copenhagen could ascertain the result of his mission. We knew that this minister that enemy, and the Danish and French troops took possession of Hamburgh together. These facts they knew, and it was impossible that they could come well prepared to the discussion of this treaty, until they were informed of the nature of the Danish propositions, and the reasons for which they had been rejected. He hoped, therefore, the noble lord would have no objection to produce the correspondence between the Danish minister and our government. It was impossible for him to pretend secresy as a ground of refusal, for there could be no secresy in the matter. But, at what time were they called upon to consider this treaty? He was now speaking on the 14th of June: and this treaty, which, it was to be feared, might form an addition to the long list of errors and of crimes, of which the present ministers were guilty, had been signed on the 3d of March. He wished, then, to know how it came, that the treaty had no sooner been laid on the table; why it had been delayed tili a period of the session when they were not so likely to have that full attendance which the importance of the subject so strongly demanded. There was another point, also, with respect to which it was highly fitting that some information should be given. They were now come to a time when Sweden, considering the sacrifices made, and to be made, by this country under this treaty, might be expected to have made some progress in the fulfilment of the engagements on her part, for which we were to pay so great a price. He asked, then, for information, as to the practical steps which had been taken by Sweden, pursuant to her engagements. He wished to know what troops Sweden had landed on the continent? What directly offensive operations against the common enemy she had commenced? Or |