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of which was sanctioned by the highest serve, that, if such an attempt had been names. He was far from wishing to see made, it was not peculiar to that side of the House stand still upon questions of the House from which he spoke ; for he moral improvement, but he trusted that it believed the right hon. gentleman who would not be led away by the refinements made the remark, had often indulged in of a spurious and false morality, which the same propensity, at a time, indeed, would seek to connect every iax with when he was not the colleague of the some deterioration of character among the present ministers. The chancellor of the people. For his own part, he believed exchequer, in arguing this question, threw that such views were not calculated to himself on the commiseration of the promote the real interests of virtue in so- House. He admitted all the evils to ciety, Many abuses in the lottery system which the tax gave birth, but he pleaded had been corrected ; but if the details of the necessity of the state.
The right individual life were to be gone into, no hon. gentleman and the noble lord dedoubt some instances might be produced fended the measure, on the ground of its in which, by transactions of this nature, antiquity and its generality. But the persons had brought suffering on them- slave trade was as old and as extensively selves. But in every line and pursuit, patronised, before England took the first imprudence or vice might be discovered, step towards its abolition, and declared and were commonly followed by similar that she would not be bound by preconsequences. There was no branch of cedent, wliere morality and justice were revenue which would remain, if its opera- concerned. The noble lord said, that the tion in sometimes leading to a voluntary drinking of spirits might produce all the sacrifice of individual happiness was to be evils which were derived from this meaconsidered as a sufficient condemnation of sure. This was very true. The evil, in it. His right hon. friend was fully aware that case, however, Aowed from the of the importance of public morality, and abuse ; but the lottery was clearly an regarded it as one of the most sacred de evil in itself. When gambling-houses posits with which a government could be were licensed abroad, the tax was laid on entrusted; but he knew also that the the keepers of them; but here the chanstrength of the country ought not to be cellor of the exchequer was himself the sacrificed, that its revenue was its strength, keeper of the gambling-house, and reand its strength the best security for its ceived the profits for the use of the morals.
state. Mr. F. Douglas said, the House he Mr. W. Williams deprecated in strong hoped, would recollect, that it was con- terms the encouragement of lotteries, as ceded by ministers that they had no other giving rise to a spirit of gambling, and way of raising the sum of 250,0001. tending to demoralize the lower classes than by adopting a measure, which of society. They were condemned as a tended to subvert the morals of the nuisance by an act of king William, and country. A right hon. gentleman had he doubted, therefore, whether their antichallenged those wbo opposed this tax to quity could be very great. He strenufind a substitute for it. They had found ously supported the resolution. substitutes for it-they had done so, four Mr. Colclough said, that although a reyears ago, when they proposed a dimi. sidence of five and twenty years on the nution of the army—they had done so on continent might, in some degree, have every occasion, when they called on mi. affected his fluency, his sentiments on the nisters to adopt some measure of re subject of lotteries was perfectly unaltrenchment. If their advice had been tered. He recollected being asked by taken, ministers would not now have been certain foreigners, in the year 1795, what compelled to defend this measure on such price the public, in this country, paid for weak and futile grounds. The right hon. ihe lottery, and what benefit they were gentleman had complimented the chan- entitled to reap from it? On calculating, cellor of the exchequer on his virtues, he found, that the lottery in England cost and had complained, that an attempt bad the public about one-third. He then been made to cast ridicule upon him. He looked to the Genoese lottery, which was did not mean to ridicule those virtues for introduced into France, and on which which the private character of the chan. Mr. Professor Bertram, at Geneva, had cellor of the cxchequer was said to be written a very curious treatise. That remarkable; but lie begged leave to ob- lottery consisted of 90 numbers, of which
five were drawn every month, and those not agree to any such thing. What he five numbers, as combined or taken sepa- greatly objected to was, that the right rately, were prizes. This cost the public hon. gentleman left the arrangement of but one-fifth. He next examined the the lotteries solely to the contractors, lottery of the Hanse Towns of Germany who were at liberty to deal out the prizes and of Switzerland, and he found the ex- just as they thought fit. It was a singular pense only one-tenth. Comparing this thing, that this was the only measure that with the English lottery, which cost one had been brought forward on which his third, ministers could not maintain it on majesty's ministers acted together. The a financial principle. In Italy, the whole question was, the morality of the country sum received was expended in prizes in one scale, and the money in another; and the person claiming a prize, paid one and on this point ministers were all agreed. tenth on receiving it at the office. 6. Take the money,” said they, “ and let
Mr. Ricardo supported the motion, and morality provide for itself." But the pointed out the evils which arose from the chancellor of the exchequer had gained drawings of the lottery so often in the a great prize—he had drawn a prize more year.
He quoted the resolutions of a pleasing to him than the 250,0001.-he society to which many of the ministers had excited the admiration of the prebelonged, deprecating the lottery ; and sident of the board of control !-He adobserved, that they were thus condemning, vised him, however, not to be too much as individuals, the law which they came to elated; for he rather thought, if the right support by their votes.
hon. gentleman embarked in that little-go Mr. Tierney said, he would vote for he would live to repent it [A laugh!]. this motion, not because it was brought Mr. Huskisson said, that under the preforward by his hon. friend, or by any sent plan of the lottery there were only person who was in the habit of thinking 12 days of drawing, however they might as he did on political subjects; but deli-be divided; but under the old plan there berately, from the best consideration he were 40 days of drawing in London, becould give the subject, connecting the sides another lottery with 40 days draw. morals of the country with its financial ing in Dublin, and in each place insurances arrangements. He conceived so trifling were effected on the lottery in the other, a sum as 250,0001. was badly, not to say The evil of these insurances was, as had disgracefully purchased, by a measure been proved to a committee of the House, which had so pernicious an effect on the fifty-fold as great as those which arose out morals, comfort, and peace of society of the lottery itself, and it was on that No man was less willing to take from the account that the present system was resources of the country, than he was, adopted. He argued, that the rage for knowing the greatness of the expenditure, gambling was not created by the lottery, and nothing but the immoral effect of this but would, if the lottery were abolished, tax could induce him to call for its aboli. break out in some other direction; that tion. The sum was trifling; and, if the the evils of smuggling were as great as ordinary loan for the year were to be those of the lottery, and might also be 20,000,000l. there could be no great dif. remedied by abolishing all taxes. It was ficulty in adding 250,000l. to it. The easy to say, add 250,0001. to the loan. right hon. gentleman said, that those who when it was proposed to abolish the opposed the tax ought to find a substitute window tax in Ireland, it might be said, for it. That was not the case ; but, if add 300,0001. to the loan; but the perthere were an addition of this kind made sons who lent their money would expect to the loan, they certainly were bound not to have their interest paid, and the ques. to oppose it. The president of the board tion still remained, How the necessities of control had said, that the chancellor of the country were to be supplied ? of the exchequer was not to be charged Mr. Lyttelton replied. He said, it with any evils that flowed from the lottery would be impertinent in him to attempt to system. He denied the position; for add any thing to the forcible arguments lotteries now were very different from which the House had heard against the what they had been. The same right lottery. He bad not appealed to the hon. gentleman said, the chancellor of the virtue of the right hon. the chancellor of exchequer would have no objection to the exchequer, or founded his argument withdraw the sixteenth shares. But he on his character as a man of piety. He was sure the right hon. gentleman would had purposely abstained from such appeal,
and he wished it to be so understood.
HOUSE OF LORDS. The report of the committee in 1809, of which the late Mr. Whitbread was chair
Wednesday, May 5. main, stated the lottery to have been
PetitIONS FOR AND AGAINST THE productive of “idleness, dissipation, and CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.] madness." Was the tax which produced The Bishop of London presented petisuch evils to be compared to the leather tions against the Catholic claims from tax? He called upon the House to put a the archdeacopries, of Colchester, stop to what destroyed the morals of the Essex, Middlesex, and St. Albao's; and country, and would finally destroy its from the clergy of the city of London. revenue.
The reverend prelate observed, that the The House then divided. Ayes, 84 ; petitioners had uniformly expressed themNoes, 133. The other Resolutions were selves desirous that every degree of tolenegatived without a division.
ration consistent with the safety of the
church and state should be granted to List of the Minority.
the Roman Catholics and Dissenters of
every description; but they wished to Abercromby, hon. J. Morland, sir S. B.
guard against any concessions, by which Althorp, visct. Macleod, Rod,
the security of our establishments might Baring, sir Thus.
Monck, sir C.
The Earl of Donoughmore rose to preBernal, R.
Newport, sir John sent a number of petitions from Ireland, Browne, Dom. Ord, Wm.
with which he had been intrusted. They Burdett, sir F. Parnell, sir H. were chiefly from their lordships Catholic Burroughs, sir W. Parnell, Wm. fellow subjects, who prayed that they Buxton, T. F. Plunkett, rt. hon. W. might be completely raised from the state Colburne, N. R. Philips, George
of degradation in which unjust laws had Colclough, C. Philips, Geo. jun.
placed them, and relieved from the unfair Crompton, Sam. Phillipps, C. M. Carew, R. S. Price, Robt.
exclusions and deprivation of civil rights Clifford, Aug. Primrose, hon. F.
which they continued to experience. It Cooper, Bransby Phillimore, Jos.
would not be proper for him to enter into Calthorpe, hon. F. Power, Rd.
the merits of the question on the present Douglas, hon. F. S.
Palmer, C. F. occasion; but with respect to the petitioners Davis, T. H.
Prittie, hon, F. A. themselves, he could with truth say, that Denman, Thos. Pares, Thos.
they represented the sentiments of the Daly, James Ridley, sir M. W.
whole of the Roman Catholic population Ellis, hon. G. A. Ricardo, David
of Ireland. Ebrington, visct. Sefton, earl of
They were couched in Evans, Wm. Smith, Sam.
language which was respectful to the Fazakerley, Nic. Stewart, Wm. legislature, and becoming for the petiGipps, George Tierney, right hon. G. tioners to offer.
From the petitions Grant, J. P.
Thorp, John Thos. which had already been presented, and Grattan, rt. hon. H. Waithinan, Robt. which remained to be offered, it appeared Grenfell, Pascoe Wilberforce, w. that the number of applications in favour Gaskell, Benj. Wood, Matthew
of the Catholics increased, while those Gordon, Robt. Williams, Wm. Howard, hon. W. Whitbread, w.
against them diminished. The number of Honywood, W. Walpole, hon.
petitions to parliament praying that the Hornby, Ed. Williams, sir R.
Catholic claims might not be granted, Harvey, D. W. Wodehouse, hon. col. were few find weak, compared with those Hutchinson, hon.C.H. Wilkins, Walter which had been presented on former occa. Hurst, R.
Wilson, sir Robt. sions, notwithstanding extraordinary enHill, lord A. White, Luke
deavours had been made to procure peti. Heathcote, T. F.
TELLERS. tions hostile to the Catholics. An attempt Hume, Jos. Lyttelton, bon. W.
had even been made in the city of Dublin Knox, hon. Thos. Bennet, hon. H. G. Kennedy, T. F.
to array his majesty's forces against his Lamb, hon. G. Duncannon, lord
majesty's Catholic subjects, by procuring Latouche, John Mackintosh, sir J.
the signatures of the military to a peti. Latouche, R.
Hughes, W.L. tion. These attempts were, however, Martin, John Madocks, W. counteracted by the petitions of large
bodies of Protestants in different parts of Ireland. He had a petition to offer to
their lordships in favour of the Catholics been on any occasion an application made from the city of Cork: one had already to their lordships which was more intitled been presented from the city of Dublin, to their serious consideration. It was not signed by the lord mayor himself, and necessary, nor was this the fit time, for persons of the first consideration in that him to repeat the arguments he had city. Having said this much, he should formerly urged for inducing their lord. proceed to present the petitions. He ships to acquiesce in the prayer of this would not trouble their lordships by the petition; nor should he in any degree reading of the whole: as they were all anticipate what properly belonged to the couched in proper terms, and had all the discussion of the question of which his same object, it would be sufficient to hear noble friend near him had given notice. one or iwo of them at length. The first He would only now say, that the truth of petition was signed by lord Fingal, by sir the opinions on this subject, which he had Thomas Esmond, the first baronet of Ire- so often unsuccessfully urged, became by land; and by a great number of persons every thing which had passed over his of rank and fortune. Another petition head, by every consideration he gave to was signed by a name of great weight the question, more deeply impressed on and respectability in Ireland-he meant his mind. And though the English Mr. Owen O'Connor. The noble lord Catholics had hitherto been unsuccessful then presented petitions from the Roman in their applications for relief from the Catholics of Dublin, Roscommon, Cork, oppressions under which they labour, Tipperary, Waterford, Monaghan, Done- he was not without hope that they would gal, and Cavan, and about 20 more peti- finally and speedily succeed. This hope tions from other places. He also pre. was founded, not only in the conduct of sented one from the Protestant freemen, the Catholics themselves, but in the con. freeholders, and inhabitants of the city of viction that the opponents of their claims Cork, praying the repeal of all civil dis- daily diminished. Those who had hitherto abilities which operate against the Roman been most hostile to the Catholics were Catholics.
ready to acknowledge their merits as Earl Grey rose in consequence of its fellow-subjects. Indeed, who could deny being once more bis duty to present to their loyalty and attachment to the constitheir lordships the petition of a most tution, their liberal employment of the respectable class of individuals, praying wealth they possess, or forget that many to be relieved from the oppression of many of them were the descendants of men who penal laws to which they were subject, for had contributed to give lustre to the no other reason than a conscientious ad- brightest periods of British history ? Many berence to the religion in which they pernicious doctrines which had been athad been educated. They, therefore, tributed to the Catholics were now ad. again came forward to request that mitted to have been improperly urged as their case might be taken into consi- grounds of exclusion. "It was admitted deration, and that they might be permitted by a noble earl, whom he saw in his place, to enjoy the full benefit of the British that the doctrine and moral character of constitution, in common with their Pro- the Roman Catholics afforded no reason testant fellow subjects. This was, in for refusing the prayer of their petition ; nearly the same words, the same request and it was now acknowledged that the which was humbly and respectfully made whole question turned upon the point of three years ago, and which he then had foreign supremacy. It was contended the honour of submitting to their lord that the Catholics were incapable of giving ships. The present petition was also a full and perfect allegiance in a country signed by the same description of persons, where the king is the head of the church namely, the pobility, gentry, great land as well as of the state. This objection, holders, and clergy of the Roman Catholic he doubted not, would also in its turn religion. It would be found, as he was give way to the progress of reason, and instructed to state, to contain a faithful the increase of information on the subject. representation of the Roman Catholics of He was encouraged in entertaining this England; and whether this petition was hope, not only from the advantage which regarded with respect to the character of had been gained by the Catholic cause the parties from which it came, the nature from the admission to which he had al. and object of the prayer, or the time at luded, but from the recollection of a meawhich it was presented, there never had sure of very considerable relief, having already been conceded by parliament. I leges of the British constitution. And Their lordships might remember, that, in what time could be more propitious to 1816, on the last occasion when he had the performance of such an act of justice the honour to present a petition from the than the present? The head of that reEnglish Catholics, he had stated a case ligion, so long placed under the power of of great hardship which had occurred in a military and ambitious chief, and there. the naval service. He alluded to the case fore represented as likely to exercise a of captain Wright—a gentleman, who, dangerous influence in this country, had after six of his brothers had fallen in the been restored to his temporal authority cause of their country, had at last, by a chiefly by British efforts. 'All apprehenlong service and his own merits, obtained sion on that ground was therefore done the appointment of master and com- away, and it was to be presumed that mander. But from this reward so dearly gratitude to this country would induce purchased he could reap no advantage, the head of the Catholic church to accede without taking an oath which amounted to every regulation which might be found to the abjuration of his religion. When necessary for the security of this country he had stated this case, the hardship was Fully correspondent with this state of the generally acknowledged ; and, in 1817, a Catholics were the sentiments and feelings noble viscount on the opposite side intro of the most enlightened portion of their duced a bill for the relief of Roman Ca. Protestant fellow subjects towards them. tholic officers of the army and navy, by His noble friend had presented a petition putting them on the same footing with numerously and respectably signed by other dissenters who are relieved from Protestants in Ireland in favour of the their disabilities as a matter of course, as Catholic claims.. Many other petitions regularly as the year comes round. He to the same effect had come from different had seen with great satisfaction the silent quarters. In this country the cause which progress of this measure, which passed he advocated was rapidly gaining ground, without any opposition. He felt the more and their lordships could not overlook gratification at seeing this measure pass what had happened on Monday night in unopposed, when he found it to be in sub- another place, where a motion in favour stance and effect neither more vor less of the Catholics had been lost only by a than that for the proposing of which the majority of two. This was a decision administration of 1807 went out of office. which could not fail to recommend most He stated this for no other reason than strongly the prayer of these petitions to to show, that strong prejudices, resting their lordships serious consideration. The on grounds which reason could not avow, peace, he trusted, would be of long durawere sure to be ultimately overcome, and tion; but their lordships surely could not to warn their lordships not to admit, with. have forgotten the many embarrassments out inquiry, assertions of the impropriety which had, during the late contest, been of granting relief to the petitioners ; for experienced in consequence of the divi. from what had happened, they must see sions that subsisted in the country. He that the same measure which was at one hoped that the prospect of war was retime asserted to be fraught with the mote ; but, as statesmen, they could not greatest danger to the church and state, avoid looking forward to the possibility of might be granted at another as an act not such an event. With France on the one only of justice but of security. This side, and America on the other, would it measure had certainly afforded great relief be wise to expose ourselves to all the evils to Catholics in general; but the English of internal disconcent, along with the Catholics, whose petition he was about chances of war with either of these to present, still remained subject to several powers? Who could be certain that the oppressive laws, from the operation of refusal to listen to just demands might which their fellow subjects in the sister not some time or other produce move. kingdom were free. That the Roman ments of despair ? Such a result was Catholics of both countries should be consistent with human nature. He wished, placed on the same footing was what he therefore, to impress it on their lordships believed no reasonable man would deny. consideration, whether it would be wise But it was not for that degree of relief he to defer to such a period the making a should apply; for he looked forward to concession which, at the present moment, nothing less than the admission of that would be received as a boon. The meaunjustly oppressed class to all the privi- sure would then lose all the grace with