and steam engineering, which will, of course, be accompanied by the needful practice in mechanical engineering or boiler drawing, and by work in an engineering laboratory. These courses could all be adapted somewhat to the special needs of the student of chemical engineering, but their primary purpose should be to deal with the subject matter so fundamentally and thoroughly, that they may furnish, so far as they go, a safe foundation for later, independent effort and study. The instructor will, if he be wise, naturally draw his illustrations mainly from those types of machines, engines, boilers, furnaces, evaporators, or what not, with which his student is most likely to come into contact, and the drawing required will be selected with some reference to its direct helpfulness. The choice of details for such courses may better be left to the engineering departments than be suggested by one who must view the matter essentially from the standpoint of the chemist.

In addition to all that has been outlined, time must be found for instruction in French and German, so essential to the chemist. Two years of instruction in each language will probably be required, one of which may, however, be relegated to the preparatory school.

There must also be some provision for the acquisition of a little skill in metal working, and in the handling of electric currents of commercial magnitude; and some knowledge of methods of hydraulic measurements is desirable, if possible.

The term "training" which has been employed in the foregoing should be interpreted in a broad sense, for no course can be wholly successful which is not one of education rather than mere training or drill. It is assumed that the instruction in the fundamental

subjects enumerated will be given upon broad lines, and in addition there should be opportunity somewhere near the close of the course for a piece of research work on the part of the student which will let him discover his ability, if he possesses it, to grapple with new problems and to rely on himself. The time available for such work will probably be short, perhaps 200 hours, and the problem will not probably be one of epoch-making character; but, if it is conscientiously dealt with, it will mean that the student goes out into his technical career with greater confidence in himself to meet untried conditions.

No reference has been made to so-called cultural studies, or to economics or business law, as these, although of great importance, lie somewhat outside of the scope of the present paper.

It scarcely needs to be reiterated that the training of a chemical engineer demands five years rather than four, and it seems clear that our students should be encouraged to spend an additional year whenever that is possible. Such a year may well be devoted to the development of their training on the mechanical side, including a somewhat larger experience in shop-work, drawing, engineering laboratory, and such additional subjects as machine design, mill-management, etc., while such chemical subjects may be taken as will lead to a more specialized knowledge of that science. The work accomplished in such a post-graduate year may well be of a character which entitles it to recognition by the awarding of a master's degree, thus giving it additional attractiveness.

DISCUSSION.

PROFESSOR NORRIS: I would ask Professor Talbot if his idea is that a man can be both a satisfactory

chemical and a satisfactory electrical engineer, that is to say, can one of these large electro-chemical plants get along with but one man?

PROFESSOR H. P. TALBOT: I hardly think that a graduate from a course in chemical engineering can be both a well-trained chemical engineer and a welltrained electrical engineer with but four years of study. A course of this length may, however, be planned with the expectation of training him thoroughly in chemistry, and giving him such a fundamental knowledge of mechanical or electrical engineering that he can get a start in these lines from which he can develop himself according to the demands of his work. The problems confronted in laying out such a course are like those met with in a course of sanitary engineering, where something of chemistry and biology must be included with the civil engineering requisite for success in the field of sanitary work, and four years scarcely suffice for the mastery of even the fundamental notions of this variety of subjects.

Formerly the course in chemical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology was essentially one of mechanical engineering, with an amount of chemistry added which bore about the same relation to the total time that the mechanical engineering subjects bear to-day. The change was made primarily because it appeared to us that the present demand for men to occupy positions which may be regarded as those of chemical engineers requires that they shall have been educated primarily as chemists rather than as engineers.

PROFESSOR NORRIS: My question was, can one engineer operate a moderate-sized electro-chemical plant?

There is the question of getting the material through the plant economically and that is a mechanical engineering problem.

PROFESSOR H. P. TALBOT: The technical field has become so largely subdivided that there are many phases which require specially trained men. My idea is that such a man as has been spoken of would ultimately meet requirements even if he did not do so immediately upon graduation, because he would acquire considerable knowledge after he had entered actual service. If I understand your question, the man you refer to should be in a position to act as superintendent, and it may be an open question whether he should not have been trained as a mechanical engineer and have acquired his chemistry afterward, but a chemical engineer trained as I have described might still, I think, fill the position after he had acquired additional practical engineering experience.

PROFESSOR NORRIS: A man must grow to be an engineer. It takes five or ten years to do so.

PROFESSOR C. F. ALLEN: I agree with what has been said and I have in mind a friend of mine who is engineer for one of the most important chemical companies in the country, and who considers himself a chemical engineer. He is a graduate of one of the Eastern colleges, not the one with which I am connected. He was graduated as a civil engineer, but he has had the fundamental training; his work is largely that of a mechanical engineer; he occupies a position that I take it is not easily filled. He succeeded, of course, because he had good training.

MR. B. JONES, JR.: In his paper Professor H. P. Talbot spoke of the popular demand for a course not

extending over more than four years. If we all believe that the public is wrong in this, and that a proper modern professional education cannot be encompassed in the shorter period, then it is our duty to insist upon what we know to be right, and not to allow the efficiency of our schools to be decreased by any pandering to public opinion. It is the duty of the teacher to mould public opinion, and when the public is wrong it is the business of the teacher to set it right.

It is unfortunate that financial necessities have often been the dominating influences in education, but if we are to succeed in giving our young men the right sort of education, we must have the courage of our convictions and carry out our ideas regardless of the cost to ourselves. A little reflection will show that the men who have done most to benefit the world have always been men of strong ideas and great moral courage; men who have always been ready to sacrifice themselves in furthering the right.

PROFESSOR LANDRETH: The problem of the best and most efficient organization in the management of constructive and industrial operations has been before the engineering profession long and often. One of the latest forms of the question concerns the proper organic relation of the engineer to the architect in the construction of extensive buildings which require the services of both in their design and erection. In such cases, shall the architect be supreme and the engineer subordinate, or shall the order be reversed? Shall each be independent, or co-ordinate, in authority? Other forms of the question concern the engineer and his work in the maintenance-of-way department of railways, the organization of the technical force in